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Messages - Recon03

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1
Please help me to sleep better:
Adobe seams to effectively shut down their CS6 (not cloud) using customers softwares although they bought them legally, if they don't upgrade into CC subscription.
So... how much can YOU as the former Allegoritmic team keep us protected from such a move by Adobe?
How much would an upgrade of a perpetual license cost? Only on steam? We bought the last perpetual in your store.


as much as I dislike Adobe nonsense, not true , CS6 works just fine..you can contact them for the downloads as well.. I had to re-install last night, but the download was gone... so I suggest contact them for support...we bought these, they cant just shut them down, that is illegal.....perpetual licenses....are life time...they can stop support sure...but they cant shut down your licenses....period..   only thing they can do is stop support, but they can't  turn off your CD keys.....sorry cant happen... You cant sell someone a perpetual license and decide years later to say its no longer perpetual licenses.... Thankfully we have laws in the US..... just like CS3, they tried that nonsense too....they can't..

2
better off doing this in your 3d program.

3
From here:
https://www.allegorithmic.com/blog/substance-team-joins-adobe-family-update

Quote
These future offerings will be primarily subscription-based, but we will continue to offer indie perpetual licenses. We believe that when the content and services offered in a subscription package evolve and improve at a steady pace, the subscription model is the best way for us to innovate fast, continuously improve your tools, and bring you more value.

Granted that doesn't say much or discuss specifically "what" they will still offer perpetual on (other then Indie in general..which could mean all Indie or only specific IDK) but it does show at least some thought into trying to keep it as an option.

I guess we will see,  if they went FULL sub only, and did not allow us to buy it..I would be gone, I left Adobe before and Auto Desk due to that, as I been a long time user of Substance, Auto Desk and Adobe, but if they pull that nonsense and do sub only, I would drop Substance....  and I know many others that would as well..... Substance needs to understand indie companies, need to be able to buy software ....and have it at any given time....we can't sub part time, and can't afford to be paying  x 10 more..... just because Adobe is greedy..  This is what is ruining both Adobe now and Auto Desk and they know it....   if the cost was the problem charge more for it.... but to have sub only, is crazy,  we cant do business that way..

4
Substance Alchemist - Discussions - Re: Sub only?
 on: March 25, 2019, 03:07:06 am 
According to the Alchemist page, it doesn't appear to be in beta anymore.. and it's available via subscription only.

I am a perpetual license holder with active yearly maintenance.  From what I can tell, in order to use Alchemist, I need to spend an extra $240/yr for a subscription to the same software+maintenance that I've already paid for.

Where are the options for those of us who prefer to be perpetual license holders?

I haven't seen anything official that states that we will get access to Alchemist in the future... Please tell me I'm wrong on this.


This has been my concern, as a user of Substance, paying for every program since they released....I feel they smack us in the face....They did it with Source and now this program.......Mega scans tried this sub only for Mixer, it didn't last...Substance will find that as well...

People want choices, and we feel, we give them more money right off the bat, you would think, they would understand this but they don't...they would rather try to get MORE money from us..

5
Substance Alchemist - Discussions - Re: Sub only?
 on: March 25, 2019, 02:54:00 am 
I don't get why people are so against subscriptions? At least with these guys, we get 30 points per month with our subscriptions. So for $20 a month, I not only get all the software updates, but I also get to download 30 assets from Substance Source. My library grows every month. I also subscribe to Megascan for the same reason.
These apps are useless without content to use within them. Plus, I really do believe the subscription model is a better way to go when your budgeting. It is a lot easier to pay out a smaller fixed cost every month than it is to have to come up with a much larger one-time payment every year to upgrade. When you add all those together it can be quite a big bite out of one's bank account. I also subscribe to Adobe CC. It is way less painful nowadays I hated paying all at once for upgrades. And maybe it is just me, but I find it far easier to write these subscriptions off at tax time every year also.


I will say it  this way for some of you that don't run a business, or understand... or maybe want to see our point of view.....For example...If I sub to Modo, I bought Indie  4 years or so ago for 180$....and still have the tool update...
If I was someone who Subbed, I would of PAID  double that or more...and left with no tool...
12 dollars x  576 dollars.... and again left with nothing...... Since I bought it, I paid 180$ and was able to buy Full and get 180 dollars off......from Full as well, if I subbed, I would of GOT nothing.


if you are a game developer as I i'm. and many are...imagine paying subs, for Substance, Maya, modo Photoshop, and so on and on and on...That adds up per month...we make games... so we go 2 - 3 years no pay..imagine if we have to pay that every month, we would never be able to... we need our programs at any given time...that is HOW we make it in this business/...I ran a business for over 15 years, and now one for a game company, what matters more than anything ...is the BOTTOM line...so when your games are released...How much did you spend to make it....what is the profit.... Subs are a fact in the LONG RUN cost more money....and...Your LEFT with NOTHING.

I bought, Modo, Full, Maya Full, 2016 , Photoshop CS6....I owe NOTHING to any of them.... and we can use them any time we want..we have access..

If we where to sub to them....we would have nothing to use...

Its an investment, when buying these programs...When you sub, there is no investment at the end of the day.... and you are left with nothing after wards, unless you keep forking out money, and if you ever made a game, you would understand what I mean, any company who has, and ran a business, knows what I mean....  If you do this for fun....Sub all you want..Not all of us do this for fun..or PART time...





So as an example.  modo Full cost 1717 dollars...  if I subbed it would be 600 dollars a year..Lets x it by three years... 1800. ..and when done, I'm left with nothing....I still OWN Modo and its very useful.... and I can make a living still....  The list goes on, see some people may use it once in awhile a sub would make sense...but for US, it cost way more money as it is Steam takes 30% after taxes, and cost of software we are lucky to see 35%..of  our profits...with Subs, and yes I used to sub to software, it cost us way more.....at the end of the day...... and we are LEFT with NOTHING..     Maya 2016, I have a 20 man license, PAID in full, this means I won't have to pay 300-400 dollars a month per person...... Since 2016...... It works great and its PAID for and we used for more than one game, client work and much more...so the investment of buying software at the end of the day is cheaper and we are NOT left with nothing..

Bottom line, many people in the gaming industry don't have any business sense... sadly, and need to understand what helps them, stay in business, and that is investments. good ones and bottom line, are just some of them.....

I hope that helps you understand our side...


Substance, we paid 50-75 dollars a year..  for Designer, and another for Painter.  I own mine for ever... as others do. also you don't always need to upgrade either..if someone don't need something or want...

You guys pay 230 dollars...  and your left with NOTHING... So keep paying more for it....I see subs as useful to people who do this part time... or for a hobby...but anyone else who does this full time, you are paying way more..... Unless you sub once a blue moon, when you need it...Well, most people, want access, at any time...we can't wait..  So subs may work for some, and I'm fine with subs out..

but we want choices....period...and we don't want, companies raping us...why do you think Auto Desk is having issues now??? SUBS only...

WHy do you think Adobe is having issues with Photoshop.....same reason... people that run a business or do this full time, want choices....period.

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Substance Alchemist - Discussions - Sub only?
 on: March 20, 2019, 02:13:20 am 
I suspect, from what I read, this will be sub only??? if so, so it begins....Adobe...


I know its Open beta, but read that it will have  a Sub, and nothing else.

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Hi,

(I'm a newbie so please ignore my overdose explanations...)
I want to make a scene that will contains about 20-30 concrete blocks. Those blocks will have some damage decals on them as you can see attached images (ignore metal parts in them please). I will make this with C4D and Redshift.

1) modeling all block decals does not seem right to me is it correct?
2) Lets say I have a cube mesh with high polygons. Without any modeling can I give it a look like as attached with just a good textures?
3) What tools should I use?
4) How should I proceed? could you give me a workflow?

I've been trying to solve this problem for 5 days nearly. I could not achieve. Especially displacement mapping is not what should it be like as attached.





thank you


Wish I could find what is a common technique that many of  us , in the larger industry for games.  but we tend to use caps for damage like this.  I think some environment artist posted on a GDC but I cant check.

So for example, you have a wall, and the edges you wanted to look damaged.. You would make the whole. with your 3d software, but the edges, you can, use Zbrush, Designer, what ever.. but you would use a 3d model and act as a cap, where the damage is..add the texture to it.  the other model may have a brick wall, normal looking one, or what ever you want. This has to do with the edge itself, so it performs well and looks good.


So to reiterate , use something like Zbrush, for the damage, or what ever you have....You can bake down that for performance and add more detail with Designer...and add to those caps...
the model itself you can texture any way you like...  but the edges is what matters the most and where the caps come into place..They are just basic  shapes, to fit over where the edges are... but keep the caps simple, so you would use a combo of Zbrush, or what ever it is and Designer... to make these.   it works well.  We use this for broken bricks, and holes in walls all the time.

8
Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

I think most of us think that SP and SD 2019 will be the final perpetual versions and it could be that the last chance to buy them at discount was actually last year in the steam black friday sale. I'm kicking myself for only getting SD2019 in the sale and not SP2019. I thought I would have another chance. There's a lunar new year sale on steam right now and substance products have no discount. It would be reasonable to assume they won't get a discount in the summer sale either or the halloween or black friday sales and then around xmas sale time they will probably quietly take everything off steam.

I'm really interested to see how they are going to spin this as an "exciting new licencing plan" to "benefit customers".


by there comments, and how Adobe handles things, I would agree with you, this will be our last version after supporting them from NEARLY day 1 and we buy many licenses... its just nonsense..  but hey, they will PAY the price for going that route, we all know this will happen...Watch and see..   (

9
"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
Edit: if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it, it's your. For the future hypothetical offers (will we still offer it?) this is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.





I haven't read part 1, but as soon as I heard this news I was so sure how this would end up that I just didnt look any further into it.  Its good to see some communication but as of yet it will take some convincing that this was a good move, why would I say this?  Experience from many applications  being sold on over the years has shown me the trend is to go subscription, eventually once the calm has settled, or some have moved on.

Autodesk went subscription, Adobe went subscription, Im stuck on CS5, the once Luxology was taken over by The Foundry, they went subscription but offered perpetual still but under such high prices it redirects the potential user to subscribe.  Iray, Arnold and many other render engines are now only subscription.  This year my render engine of use Vray4C4D was taken over by Chaos group, no more perpetual licence. Corona now its out for C4D is subscription only.

When you say "if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it"  I think this will hold true, this same statement was given for Vray4C4D.  You will keep what you currently have, but next year there is no upgrade path perpetually, your simply stuck at the version your on, but you can subscribe if you want, iis this what you mean when you say "you will keep it"?

Where subscriptions and perpetual options are given its at a advantage to make sure subscription options look cheaper by offering the perpetual licences at higher prices, or maintenance.   I do remain skeptical because why would anyone make a deal without looking at the ins and outs of the licencing before the sale?  The visibility should be clear already, but maybe not as to if its heading subscription only but in how it will be implemented or put to the current users, or at what point.  Do Adobe offer any perpetual options currently?  This is a genuine question, maybe you do, but if you don't why would Substance be any different?

Why do so many not like subscription?  I can see the advantage in subscription if your using the software everyday, your making a good income from it, sure you always keep up to date.  Development can move faster too.  The down side is not everyone whats to hire software.  Not everyone feels the need to have the latest version when it may not offer any features that are benefit to them, that choice is taken away.  No longer does the upgrade sales rely on a good well featured upgrade, its rather your get what your given, and you will keep paying for it as you don't own it, I don't like this arm up your back method.  Even the current system in place points the user  to subscribe as without it Substance Source its absent, but at least the option is there, and the rent to own option I think is the best option that sits right in the middle.

If you Adobe had a rent to own option id be in right now but to rent all my software every year and own nothing but the use of it would be a very very expensive way to go.  Times are getting hard for many, and stability of life is on the fine line.  This software takes many years to master, much investment of time and money for training is put in, yet if for some reason one cant afford to keep a subscription they have nothing but files on their computer.

Dan


I disagree, as a Modo, User, it actually cost less...most artist in the industry will need Modo..... all year, it will COST more...money, Auto Desk, Maya cost before around 3 grand..  now its like 300 a month? I didn't check.....NOT everyone updates or can every year...SO that cost a company......smaller indies are the future and are trying to make it, so it cost us WAY MORE money, that is a fact, I know I ran gaming business and been apart of larger and smaller ones... So the hobbist an sub all they want, but many programs want you to PAY for a year.. ahead..once that SUB drops your left with no way to make a living and YOU OWN NOTHING... this is why many do not RENT  a home or an apartment, your LEFT with NO INVESTMENTS....companies make it because of SMART investments, the future is smaller companies and others...If Substance, now Adobe  burns, us, they will LOSE many loyal PAYING customers, and THEY WILL MAKE much less as Adobe does today....AUTO DESK, has the same problem,, they make MUCH less, due to doing this...THE FUTURE in gaming, and many other companies are SMALLER companies...SO....subs work for people who do this for fun, or part time, but companies, NEED it yearly.....daily...

PS: Modo yearly feee :  $599 USD   after that  year your left with NOTHING...

second year,  599

Third year 599

4th year 599..

Your paying 2300 around..and LEFT WITH NOTHING.......

License YOU KEEP 1717 dollars...You KEEP for ever..   not every company needs the newest version either, but if we did, we pay maint. fee. 400 I think.  but we don't need to, I can wait year 4, and pay 600  = 2300 I still OWN my software and can make a living an update to date.


See the trend here, this is called SMART business...



if someone don't use it that often fine, a Sub works...

but for the MANY who do this for a living, IT DON'T WORK... and cost more, and they will put  us our of business...and that is the issue, Indies are the future ......Look at Steam... and Epic now..Discord and more..

So these companies like Auto Desk, Adobe need to wake up ..

10
Regarding renting, this actually depends on people usage.
It may seem strange for people on the forum as you are mainly « core users », but the Substance subscription is by far the offer which has the most of success (80% of our new users). The reason is that not everybody needs to use texturing tools on a daily basis, lots of users are using it « per project », and so are just paying for a few months, stop, come back later, etc.

My point is that there are different usage, and different needs. It’s all about the value you get in the offers.
That’s why we try to keep options, to answer users different needs.


Hi, respectfully, I been  a professional user for larger companies and my own.. I have worked for studios using your software and, now made my own company,  I supported you from nearly day 1...I have seen some bad things you guy done, to upset us, which happens I think with any company, but we supported you...I been a huge Substance user with over  thousands of hours on Steam and even more off..       So what upsets me, is yes a huge  % may want or use Sub, but this is why people like me and many LIKE me, who are professional,  and/or indie, left Adobe , Auto Desk....I replaced Maya with Modo and move it...I have not updated Adobe, since CS6, I still use sometimes, but refuse SUB only anything....which is why I don't use Houdini....  but I plan to since they offer more higher plans.. where we can license with out subs.... Adobe and Auto Desk screwed over people like me to SPENT THOUSANDS, and THOUSANDS and slapped us in the face..

I will tell you why...


One... companies  like myself, make games, we will go years making NO MONEY... from a game, so we cant have every single tool we use , charging sub fees...Say we cant pay that sub fee, we have NO TOOL....right? so that is the issue

With a license, we can still use the older license and be able to make that  living, we may be behind a version....but we still have a tool to make money since we bought a license, with a sub, if we cant PAY THAT MONTH we are screwed and cant make our living..This is a huge problem... imagine a indie company or smaller company...paying bills every single damn month.....it would COST MORE...for us.. by the time we release, due to STEAM and everyone else nearly taking 30% taxes,  development cost, due to SUBS costing more by the time we are DONE....we are paying, 60-70% , we take 30% how the hell can we make it? we cant..I been a developer since 1990's and I see this more and more with these stupid subs.....   and as I said, i bought all of your versions even if I didn't use....I  use Designer a ton....I'm not a larger Painter user...I like others better, but I bought all of yours to support you...but my point is, Subs at the end of the day cost more and if you don't keep subing, we are LEFT WITH nothing, indies cant afford that and make money, this is a fact.,....You guys use well its ONLY 10 bucks...



Let me give you an example, MODO indie was around 13 bucks a month, x this by 4 years...    I bought for my license...180 dollars, I still have by the way..... It would of cost me the indie more money and took more away for us to be successful ....So yes we know you guys need to make money and you do by charging yearly fees... which I'm good with and you should, I promote this to the asset store guys actually.....but don't sit there and say subs are cheaper.(I know your not, but I hear this from Adobe, its total nonsense.......they are NOT.. period.....They may work for some..fine, offer them, but if you take away licenses as Adobe did, you are screwing, us and I for one, would NEVER support you and about 80% of our textures are from Designer ones we made...I would walk, because you would put me out of business... period  I hope you guys STILL OFFER, the license.......Adobe lost me, and I own CS2, 3, 4, 5 5.5, 6  master collections, Web versions....THEY LOST me... since they  slapped me in the face...Auto Desk, I own Max, 2008, 10, 13, 16, Maya around same years, last one 2016 Full network license its about 10 grand..    and I wont support them...They slapped me..  you get the point, so if you guys do this, you will turn out like Adobe, with most people hating you, for slapping them in the face after all the support we gave you...we just ask, to support us as we did you from DAY 1. nothing more, nothing less...OFFER choices...... that is what users want!!

11
Substance Integrations - MODO - Re: Modo 12.2
 on: December 12, 2018, 12:15:23 am 
Hi @Recon03 ,

Can you create the Substance using either the kit menu in the top right (with the Substance icon) or using the ctrl+alt+s hotkey? Is it just the entry in the textures menu, or are all three methods not functioning?

Best,

Galen Helfter


as I said above I was able to see the S in the kit, and select it..the Texture Menu same thing..  I added a ticket when I first moved from Indie to Full and ever since I had a weird issue.... in the kits folder I can open Contents and before the kit folder is some weird ; in the address, so I could never get anything working....Now I finally got it all working, all my kits......... So I forgot that happen, and decided to move Substance  since I remember it may a whole new folder structure.... which made a new kits folder....no of my  kits worked there though......so I moved Substance there and what is ODD Substance works....but does not link....


So I GOT it working but my folders are messed up still...So this is prolly a Modo issue more so prolly..  they never got back to me before, but I got my kits working a few months back, but Substance wont work in the place of all my other kits..regardless it works now but I will deal with this when I talk to  The Foundry again...so if it breaks again I will post back...it was odd though everything showed up but it was greyed out.  I think its more of a Modo issue though ever since I had that issue when they transferred me.


FYI when this happen, I was not able to use anything to create a Substance, it was just greyed out.. in the texture menu.

12
Substance Integrations - MODO - Re: Modo 12.2
 on: December 07, 2018, 05:41:25 am 
I deleted the config file,  the plug in still didnt work...I made sure I used the new Modo 12...LPK....still nothing...I reinstalled 10 times NOTHING.

I have deadlines here..and still no support replies..  Substance due to Unity, Modo issues, Steam issues, issue after issue is testing my patience with  issues.... 

I did everything that normally goes wrong with YOUR PLUG INS...and it still isn't working..I can see it enabled, I can see it in the KITS..I can see it in the texture menu..but its greyed out...remaking a new config does not work...there must be a bug here.... because nothing else works here.

This is MODO 12.2 V1....


if I cant get an answer soon I WILL be forced to use Maya, and move everything.....I just don't get these Substance issues all the time.. always something, you guys need to go through your plug ins. a little better. also we need replies, with in 24 hours, as some of us HAVE DEAD LINES... 


regards...

13
Substance Integrations - MODO - Modo 12.2
 on: December 05, 2018, 10:16:03 pm 
Hi I have Modo Full now, and 12.2, Substance shows greyed out when you select texture under Modo.  you cant create inside of Modo under that tab..


 I installed the plug in, to be sure its installed right..and its not working. any idea whats going on here.? THANKS

14
I got the same email months ago and nothings happened as of yet...

But it doesn't surprise me. Allegorithmic approached me with a view to using one of my images on their website. I filled out a 'consent to use' agreement and I've heard absolutely nothing.

That was almost 7 months ago... bear in mind that I re-rendered the image in question to better suit their needs.

Not happy really, at least they could put it in their Gallery if they've decided not to use it :)


I really wished I knew who to speak to at Allegorithmic to get some sort of answer...

I been supporting them since day 1. and sadly there communication skills needs a lot of work.  I was told this awhile ago , and nothing.  So no idea either.  Maybe they are running into problems, but an update would be nice.:)  my guess is they will add more people as they fix issues and can add more.


15
I really hope we get the support we need for the terrain shaders we use like our own, or if someone uses CTS, RTP, or mega splats...  This has caused many long time users I know to leave Unity all together since it caused issues.   Yes I know we can export as a texture... which helps sure. but this does cause issues.


We are staying  on 2017.4, until you guys get this worked out...I do hope this is resolved by next year some time as we are expected to early release our new Steam game late 2019 -early 2020.   we use Substance a ton as I have for Unreal, Cry, AAA engines and now Unity...the support for Unity has really made , many users upset...  We understand that some of it is due to Unity and there nonsense... so we hope that you guys understand, many experienced users need this, not sure who made the choose to worry about mobile over the support for shaders for terrains.... but regardless we hope this is going to be addressed soon as I was told it was, then I was told you guys didn't know when..... I mean I stopped buying Substance products since the current games i'm under contract with, I can't even use your stuff the way we like....the plug in, is a total joke right now even for meshes....    I get its a beta, but for how long??  we go through this nonsense  every year with the newest version of Substance ..making it useless for us to buy a new version...  I own all of your products since day 1..and have thousands of hours.. and hate to even rant about this...but I just don't understand the thinking behide this, when its your tool.. and its making us where there is no point to buying newer versions since we can't use commercial currently.. I hope you guys  understand our frustration...…   I plan to buy the new stuff, once this is resolved, but, it does make me rethink about bothering for future Unity games....     anyways, do your best, and we hope since mobile is done, you will resolve these issues soon.     Thank you. for understanding our frustration. 

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