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Messages - musashidan

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SubstanceSubstance - Meet MAT 2 Contest - Re: Meet MAT 2 contest FAQ
 on: February 03, 2020, 02:34:57 pm 
@Vincent I've submitted my entry, but the images have the Mat logo on them. Do I need to resubmit without the logo? Thanks.

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submissions:




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Missed out on this last time round so I had to get in on this one. Could only spare 2 days on this so have to call it finished(besides the final renders)There are quite a few Chinese themed entries so best to put mine in........ Had a lot of fun with this. Never used displacements at all in SP so this was a great opportunity to experiment. I won't give up on Zbrush just yet though. :D

Best of luck to everyone. There are some terrific entries and the creativity on display is pretty incredible. Being forced to work under such restrictions has led to some truly wonderful characters.






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I'm posting my concerns below again(copy/paste from page 6) as they weren't addressed. I'm wondering if you can give any info that is a bit more specific regarding your roadmap? Just saying that 'real-time 3D is the future and we're heading that direction' is way too vague, and nothing new as real-time 3D had always been your focus of expertise anyway.

I would find it very hard to believe that Allego staked their entire future - company, reputation, dreams, careers, everything - on something that wasn't fleshed out to the point where it was a solid vision of what you wanted to achieve with this deal. I'm not asking anyone to break NDAs, I just wanted some roadmap clarifications. Thanks.

Copy/paste follows:

Having looked at what Dimensions is I have no idea why on earth any artist in the games industry would ever have a need for it? We have UE4/Unity/EEVEE/Toolbag 3, and even Painter to look dev our real-time assets and test them in-engine. Any serious pipeline is going to involve any of the above plus the 3D DCC 'hub' program(Max/Maya/Blender/Modo) Where does it fit in, exactly.

What does Dimensions have to do with the real-time industry? Isn't it a biased raytracer? I realise that in a few years real-time raytracing may very well be the next 'big step forward' as it's already being partially implemented in some cases, but this will be in a true environment like UE4.

This is what I meant when I said that Substance tools would be wasted in an environment like Dimensions. If I do want to render my game assets offline why would I ever want to do it in Dimensions when I can use Arnold or Corona instead? This is what worries me the most, Substance team members and tools being used to 'jump on the 3D bandwagon' - as you put it - so Adobe can put smiles back on the faces of corporate logo designers. Not cool. :) I know it's early days, but I'm very doubtful that cutting-edge games industry workflows/pipelines(that Allego have excelled at) will be featured anywhere prominently in an Adobe office space......

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@musashidan Corporate logo designers need love too ;D

Come on, man. You can do better than that. My questions still stand.

Corporate logo designers and Substance tools in the same conversation? Welcome to Adobe...... ;)

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Jeremie, thank you for the informed response. The thing is though, having looked at what Dimensions is I have no idea why on earth any artist in the games industry would ever have a need for it? We have UE4/Unity/EEVEE/Toolbag 3, and even Painter to look dev our real-time assets and test them in-engine. Any serious pipeline is going to involve any of the above plus the 3D DCC 'hub' program(Max/Maya/Blender/Modo) Where does it fit in, exactly.

What does Dimensions have to do with the real-time industry? Isn't it a biased raytracer? I realise that in a few years real-time raytracing may very well be the next 'big step forward' as it's already being partially implemented in some cases, but this will be in a true environment like UE4.

This is what I meant when I said that Substance tools would be wasted in an environment like Dimensions. If I do want to render my game assets offline why would I ever want to do it in Dimensions when I can use Arnold or Corona instead? This is what worries me the most, Substance team members and tools being used to 'jump on the 3D bandwagon' - as you put it - so Adobe can put smiles back on the faces of corporate logo designers. Not cool. :) I know it's early days, but I'm very doubtful that cutting-edge games industry workflows/pipelines(that Allego have excelled at) will be featured anywhere prominently in an Adobe office space......

And thanks for the news about the Mixamo team. It's great to think that they may not be dead and buried along with their fantastic tools and ideas.

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Vincent, now that a lot of people(myself included) have calmed down and the drama has somewhat subsided, my primary concern is the direction that your new 'Adobe 3D division' will take.

As stated, Allego have become a part of Adobe to lead the way into the uncharted 3D domain. But first, a relevant anecdote:

Just over a year ago on the Mixamo forums Adobe axed UE4 support overnight with ZERO warning. The outrage thread that followed was from many concerned indie-devs who were in the middle of projects that were built entirely around the Mixamo UE4 workflow. A solitary Adobe 'PR-woman' appeared on the thread with scripted corporate platitudes and absolutely no explanation other than: 'Adobe currently don't have the resources to continue supporting the UE4 tools for Mixamo......'

Really? Adobe, one of the biggest graphic software companies in the world haven't got the resources to assign a single programmer to this task?

Later, it transpired, that the real reason(admitted by this corporate talking head) was that Adobe were concentrating all resources on their new project that would revolutionise the 3D industry.....That project was 'Project Felix' - now known as Dimensions. So basically, Adobe killed off a fantastic pipeline that many artists/devs relied on for important work in favour of their 'Keyshot for soccer moms' deadware that they call Dimensions.

This is how many of us see Adobe's attitude to innovation, to artists, to serious pipeline workflows, to creative freedom......as practically non-existent at worst, and sterile at best.

So, with all of this in mind, my question is what exactly was Adobe's proposal to Allego that concerned entering the 3D market that go Allego to agree?

1 - does Adobe intend to allow you to develop primarily with the games industry in mind?

2 - does Adobe want you to pursue an Adobe-centric pipeline that will favour using Substance tools in Dimensions?

3 - can you give us some details on what exactly was Adobe's vision when they said that they wanted to enter 3D?

Pricing and sub models aside, the direction that Allego will now take, and what specific fields in 3D you will focus on is much more important to me than haggling over the price. As a long-term Max user I've been through all the subscription Vs perpetual madness over the last few years and I still use Max. And I will still use Substance tools because they are the best at what they do, and have revolutionised the entire games industry. I just spent 12 solid hours working in Painter, ffs! :)

Painter has become so entrenched in everything that I do that I really can't imagine life without it. The thoughts of losing that power or having it diluted/dumbed down/hacked apart for the sake of some 'logo designer's' inability to grasp the 3rd dimension kills me.

Any anger I've felt or displayed is purely a reaction to the dread that your incredibly creative team and tools will be utterly wasted by whatever endevour a company like Adobe may have in mind. That's my concern.

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Dimensions 'deadware' is using Vray, not Iray. To showcase SP as a 'companion' to the 'Keyshot for soccer moms' rubbish that is Dimensions is an insult to Allego and their incredible, industry defining tools. What a f**king waste!

Adobe has absolutely no business 'expanding' to the 3D sector. There was a rumour a few weeks back that Adobe had purchased Modo, but that was untrue. It now looks like they will go with C4D instead, as it's the go-to for motion graphics. This, to me, means that Substance tool influence and dedication to the games industry, first and foremost, will be either greatly diminished or completely ignored. Integration with UE4/Unity and all the other major 3D DCCs will most likely be abolished so that Adobe can keep Substance tools within their 'family' of tools for 2D logo 'artists', product designers, and corporate dabblers with ZERO ability to create in a third dimension.

I realise this is all complete speculation with no basis other than my own personal deductions, but I hope I am completely wrong on this.

World renowned games studios have built entire pipelines around using Allego's tools. I just can't believe that they[Allego] would be forced to abandon their vision and dedication to the games industry under direct orders from their new overlords. Surely the integrity and passion of everyone involved with Allego would have thrashed out a contract that allowed them to continue their revolutionary vision. Please tell me you did......

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And all the while the evidence was right under our noses....... :)


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Something's just clicked now that Alleg devs are saying that Adobe have been pulling strings the last 2 years. When Painter 2018 got a UI facelift I instinctively didn't like it. I felt it was moving away from the artist-friendly and towards the sterile corporate look. I much preferred the older UI. What clicked was the flyout menus. The very same design that's been in Photoshop for years.

And then there's the decision to get rid of all the colour in the icons, which makes the UI harder to read and much less visually pleasing. The bake dialogue suffers greatly from this.

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Ironically enough, I made this in Photoshop, and in those few minutes I still experienced the same bugs that have been in it for over 10 years......


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Here's my concern, I work in VFX and feature animation, a fairly niche market in the grand scheme of things. Adobe is a company geared towards selling software to the masses. They view 3D content creation as something that is going to become more mainstream in the future, which is probably true. How concerned are they going to be with issues like seamless UDIM painting and features that pertain to a tiny segment of the potential market? I just can't see them caring all that much about vfx pipeline tools, unless this is just one move of a much larger strategy to break into 3d.

We shall see I guess.

I agree 100%. I'm in the games industry and they won't give a shit about this either. When Adobe say they are 'expanding to the 3D market, they mean 3D for 2D artists who fail miserably at 3D. i.e: clicking a few buttons in a childish UI that will result in 'photorealistic' product design and logos that will WOW! all your friends when you post it to social media.

I doubt there's a single employee at Adobe who even nows what a UDIM tag is.

Substance materials will probably be integrated into their shitty 'Keyshot for idiots' dead-ware called Dimensions, but the days of Sub Painter/Designer being industry leaders at the forefront of a texturing revolution are over. The very thoughts of Adobe working on a Substance graph new feature doesn't even compute.

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In a quiet, dark corner a broken Mudbox - shadow of his former self - is consoling a weeping Substance Suite........ 'Me too, buddy....me too....'

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The team at Quixel must be cracking open the champagne right about now...... It's like finding out that Mike Tyson has been paralysed and will fight you in a wheelchair, 5 minutes before you're due to go 12 rounds.

That's hilarious you think Quixel is a better alternative since it literally requires Photoshop to even boot up. (you know, ADOBE photoshop?)

I'm referring to Megascans/Mixer. I wouldn't wipe my arse with Quixel Suite DDO, and I've been using Sub Painter since beta and Substances since they were practically unknown so you don't have to convince me of what's at stake here, mate.

What I'm getting at is that this opens the door for Quixel to get their shit together and build a brand new version of DDO that is entirely free from PS. Quixel Suite 3.0 is in production. Who knows what they will create?

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Haha Wes is definitely staying in the team, as is everybody else.

For the time being........ just wait until the corporate vampires suck your will to live from your once joyous soul..... ;)

I really hope things remain as they are, but I'm not that naive. I've been around the CG block for many years and have been in this very moment many times before. It always ends in disappointment and the death of innovation.

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