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Messages - Xathian

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31
In reading the blogs, Allegorithmic survived and flourished perfectly fine for 15 years, then two years ago Adobe joined the Alegorithmic board and suddenly budget targets had to be met (presuming bigger profits) which then led to Athegorithmic to sell to Adobe.

Lets hope Pixologic never invite Adobe on to their board.

Budget targets always had to be met, after all we had to survive^^
However Adobe joining the board 2 years ago helped us to triple our size (from 50 to 150 employees) and launch / start new products (Source, Alchemist, etc. and all the other cool stuffs we didn't announce yet).

Source will be closed after the CC switch, Alchemist will be cancelled once the first cuts come to make up for lost subscriptions. Do me a favour Nicolas and remember this post. I want you to remember that someone told you exactly what would happen in a year when what I just said does come to fruition. I am starting to think that you actually aren't just being Adobes mouthpiece and legitimately don't realise how royally fucked you are. You have destroyed your company, most of your friends at the office will be gone within a year or two. You do not understand the deal you made and how many before you made this same deal and perished within a few years.

Also your defense is very odd to say the least. You tell us that since Adobe has come on board you've bloated the company 300% and yet frankly I've been very unhappy with your updates since the change to a yearly based numbering system for your products. You have feature requests for extremely basic features that every other software has and have been on the support sites requests section for 3+ years. We STILL can't merge texture sets at export nor can we hide objects within the scene. You can't even copy filter stacks between layers. We can't get these features even though you've had 2 years of Adobe backing and a tripling in your company size? What the hell do I have to look forward to with Adobe ownership then? The same, or worse, rate of updates with a bloated licensing system, bloated CC software integration and no perpetual license?

Give me a break. You were around for 15 years and yet at the final 2, along comes Adobe into the board of directors swinging its might and controlling it all, you yourself credit them as the reason your employment rate tripled and you were able to start so many other projects. But now suddenly this is all a shaky foundation and selling yourself to Adobe is the thing to do.

Sounds to me like Adobe came on board and spent the last 2 years grooming your company for a take over, and your delusional wannabe Peter Jackson CEO fell for it; hook, line and sinker.

32

That will not happen, we're not savages :)

Did Adobe buy you in the sense they own the company or is this some sort of partnership

Adobe bought them fullstop

https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-acquires-allegorithmic-substance-3D-gaming/

33
SubstanceSubstance - Discussions - Re: Why Adobe?
 on: January 23, 2019, 11:25:48 pm 
My concerns are that we will end up in being forced to join Adobe's CC subscription plans

We are, it's already been essentially confirmed by Adobe.

https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-acquires-allegorithmic-substance-3D-gaming/

  • The addition of Allegorithmic furthers our expansion of Creative Cloud into 3D content design.
  • With this acquisition, Creative Cloud will benefit from Allegorithmic tools

34
A word of warning, be careful with perpetual license. At the end of the day you're purchasing perpetual access to Substance in an agreement with Allegorithmic and when they cease to be Allegorithmic then your license granter no longer exists and that license is invalid. They will just turn off the current licensing servers.

The same happened with InstaLOD. They sold licenses for UE4 integrations and when they decided to rebrand the company all those licenses just died overnight and don't function anymore.
That will not happen, we're not savages :)

You no longer speak for Substance, you do not own or control its future. Can you get the CEO of Adobe to come and post that instead?

35
We totally understand your fears, and we were expecting such reactions.
We chose to go and work with Adobe (nobody or nothing forced us to do this) because we truly believe this is the best move to still help rock the 3d world. We obviously talked a lot with Adobe people before doing this move, and we know that it's now our job to show you why we did it. We don't expect you to take any words for granting, this is by our actions that we will show you why we did it :)

In the meantime, you can read the blogpost from our CEO, explaining his feelings about it: https://medium.com/@sebastien.deguy/https-medium-com-sebastien-deguy-my-peter-jackson-moment-7dd64ba1d1f1

The question is, did this choice happen because you needed to merge for the benefit of your customer base? Or did this happen as per the post below which was strictly about meeting quarterly targets?



https://polycount.com/discussion/208172/adobe-substance

This merge happened because we chose it, and we believe in the project for which Adobe gave us the keys.
We've had lots of offers in the last years, and we decided to go with Adobe because we truly believe in it.

And we now have to prove you why we did this :)

I do appreciate your reply. It would help a lot of people if we could know exactly what benefits we're going to see from this merger. We all love Substance and the negativity in this thread is solely based on not wanting to see something we love using day to day go away, or become priced in a way that smaller studios cannot afford the subscription fees. I already know people are going to say what has been green lighted, but these are all valid concerns especially when Adobe has touched other companies less than desirable results have occurred.

If Adobe allows Allegorithmic to continue doing what they do best, and keep the packages at a reasonable rate I'm sure most people will be fine, but with news about merging into Creative Cloud, well... that doesn't seem too promising.

We obviously cannot say much yet, and today the only thing we can say is that if you trusted us in the past, please trust us, even just a little bit, when we say we feel it's the best chance to go on improving the 3d world. And we will prove you why we did this.

Thank you for your response Nicolas. I'll ride this out and see how things play out. I have no intention of dumping Substance due to the merger personally and I've spent a lot of man hours learning all the software and really enjoy it. There would have to be an unattractive change in pricing or features to make me do this, and only time will tell what will happen. I'm not going to lie, I am a bit nervous as are so many others as substance is intertwined in my workflow.

I will be looking at a perpetual license though once my subscription runs out in three months.

A word of warning, be careful with perpetual license. At the end of the day you're purchasing perpetual access to Substance in an agreement with Allegorithmic and when they cease to be Allegorithmic then your license granter no longer exists and that license is invalid. They will just turn off the current licensing servers.

The same happened with InstaLOD. They sold licenses for UE4 integrations and when they decided to rebrand the company all those licenses just died overnight and don't function anymore.

36
We obviously cannot say much yet, and today the only thing we can say is that if you trusted us in the past, please trust us, even just a little bit, when we say we feel it's the best chance to go on improving the 3d world. And we will prove you why we did this.

With all the respect: you can't be serious, right?

This is Adobe we are talking about, it's not that they became what they are by being nice to people or their costumers. They care about money and shareholders, period.

How it's even possible someone of you expect the community to trust something like this, it's ridiculous.

As we said, Adobe has been an investor in Allegorithmic for 2 years, and a member of the board. So every major decisions that happened in the last years (all new products, hires, etc.), Adobe was part of it.
If you don't trust that's fine, we will just show you with actions why we did this. In the meantime anyway nothing changes ;)

Nice use of more "IN THE MMEANTIME" shit there. You're not fooling anyone with the corporate speak.

Anyways down to the point, let me highlight this for you

Quote
Adobe was part of it.

Now they are all of it, and you will die like every other acquisition no matter how pompous you are about how you're too big to fail. Pursue alternate job options sooner than later. Your company is going to fold like a cheap suit when you change to Creative Cloud licensing and your subscriber count dries up overnight.

37
We totally understand your fears, and we were expecting such reactions.
We chose to go and work with Adobe (nobody or nothing forced us to do this) because we truly believe this is the best move to still help rock the 3d world. We obviously talked a lot with Adobe people before doing this move, and we know that it's now our job to show you why we did it. We don't expect you to take any words for granting, this is by our actions that we will show you why we did it :)


Thank you for your comment. It can't be nice having to read the numerous negative posts. I don't doubt the intentions of the team to keep striving to bring us great products, as you have done for years, and I truly do wish the team all the best and continued success going forward. I want your products to continue to go from strength to strength, because they are so awesome.

However, the problem is, and what my fear the most it,  you don't have the final say on how anything goes anymore. You no longer have that luxury. Adobe is your boss. That's the reality. And you were Adobe's competitor. My guess is they bought you purely so they could eliminate that competition and retain the lionshare of the market in their own name, not for some goal of helping Allegorithmic software continue with the vision of the founder(s), keeping the team together or whatever else.   You guys may have all the best intentions in the world, and I believe you do, but if you don't have total control (which you don't now), then you can't be sure of, or promise, anything...

Truth to be told, Adobe had been a major investor in Allegorithmic and a board member for 2 years now. So every major things that happened during the last 2 years, Adobe agreed and even pushed for it.

And as you may noticed, we didn't promise anything. We didn't announce anything. Because indeed, the only thing we can do is now fight to prove you why we did this.

That would include your licensing change last year. Thanks for inadvertently confirming Adobes plans for Substance, buddy.

38
Time to learn Mari.

Can't afford $2000 for that. Yikes.

And what? We pay for a software not becouse we can not pirate it down in 10 sec, we pay for it becouse we wanna support it's developmant, becouse we TRUST in their development team, becouse we TRUST  in their leadership, becouse WE TRUST IN THEIR DECISIONS.
The relationship between a software company and thie community is the most important factor of their business imo.

I have friends that has huge software parks and they pay the most as donation to Blender : thats how it works.

Not sure what you're driving at. I've paid about $500 for two years of Substance, $250 at a time. I can't afford a $2000 payment for a license of Mari no matter how long it lasts.

I don't pirate software. I support development, but $2000 is too expensive for me.

You won't be paying $250 anymore, you fool. There's a damn clear reason why all 6 mentions of licensing this past day had "For now" "currently" "planned" etc tagged on. It's heading to the Creative Cloud, where you will be paying $21 each for Designer and Painter. So hello $500 a year, or you'll be paying $53 a month for the Creative Cloud Suite, so $636 a year. And these licenses are NOT perpetual like the $250 you mentioned paying. You stop, you lose the software. Period.

In 3 years you've reached the $2000 price tag of Mari, which you'd own forever with that purchase, and the price will just keep adding up and up. In 6 years you're $4000 in and still own nothing, cancel and no more Substance for you.

Also note that $2000 is only the initial purchase, it's less than $500 a year to renew the maintenance if you so choose to want the new features, which is already going to be the price of the Creative Cloud Substance Suite, so anyone with a budget is better off eating the upfront cost of Mari and own the software forever while having the option to renew a year of updates for the same price Substance will cost.

39
We totally understand your fears, and we were expecting such reactions.
We chose to go and work with Adobe (nobody or nothing forced us to do this) because we truly believe this is the best move to still help rock the 3d world. We obviously talked a lot with Adobe people before doing this move, and we know that it's now our job to show you why we did it. We don't expect you to take any words for granting, this is by our actions that we will show you why we did it :)

In the meantime, you can read the blogpost from our CEO, explaining his feelings about it: https://medium.com/@sebastien.deguy/https-medium-com-sebastien-deguy-my-peter-jackson-moment-7dd64ba1d1f1

Going to rock the 3D world along with Mixamo and Fuse? At least you've made this post so when Seb is fired in 12 months and the entire team is gone by 2022 we can say it was actually all your fault for willingly choosing to sell out and you weren't forced to do it.

Sit on your throne of arrogance over the 12+ dead software corpses of former Adobe buyouts and proclaim you are the special case and that will never happen to you.

And FYI, no one gives a hot shit about your greedy CEOs corporate puppet Medium post, it is WONDERFULLY hilarious that he draws himself a comparison to Peter Jackson. A man who grew from extremely humble origins to produce a magnum opus and immediately crash and burn after, produce such amazing hits as The Hobbit and Mortal Engines. Good on you Seb!

40
Hey guys, of you want more details such as proof that Substance is getting moved to the Creative Cloud you can dodge all of Allegorithmics marketing bullshit and two faced double speak by going straight to Adobes press release

https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-acquires-allegorithmic-substance-3D-gaming/

Quote
The addition of Allegorithmic furthers our expansion of Creative Cloud into 3D content design.

Goodbye Substance Suite

41
My plea is to NOT follow the Adobe licensing model. ACC Teams is an enormous pain for us.

They're switching to Creative Cloud, they just conveniently left that out of this announcement. The Gamasutra article has more details mainly from the Adobe perspective as a press release and includes this line:

Quote
The company plans to do that by bringing some of Allegorithmic's tools to the Adobe Creative Cloud


42
Time to learn Mari.

Can't afford $2000 for that. Yikes.

You'll be paying $2000 in 2 years of the Creative Cloud license, and with Adobe that means you'll get 1 new feature for Substance in that time period. At least with that $2000 for Mari you own it forever.

Could you please tell me more about Mari? Im looking for alternatives. Does it go well with blender and ue4? Does it have a material library like substance share once did (it will be gone super soon with adobe in charge). Their website appears to be having maintenance atm.

It's VERY different from Substance, admittedly its strength is about actual painting and is far more suited towards organics rather than hard surface but it can do both. If you're unfamiliar with Mari it will take you a long time to master it, there are good tutorials on Youtube.

43
Time to learn Mari.

Can't afford $2000 for that. Yikes.

You'll be paying $2000 in 2 years of the Creative Cloud license, and with Adobe that means you'll get 1 new feature for Substance in that time period. At least with that $2000 for Mari you own it forever.

44
@nmargie This can't be further from the truth though,Adobe has a great track record at integrating companies. Even Photoshop was an acquisition, and the team is still there more than 20 years later.

@Colby Turybury 0 I'll have to disagree here too, Adobe is one of the most innovative software companies. It is regularly the top contributor to SIGGRAPH for example, and the R&D department is enormous.

Adobe has been part of our board for 2 years, we know them and we know their company culture. It is actually very close to ours, despite the size difference.

Listen to you already here, spending your day squawking about how amazing Adobe is. They buy you and you're already acting like their lapdog in under 24 hours.

45
One of the worst companies on Earth, congratulations on throwing yourself away. Time to learn Mari.

Oh and nice corporate speak on the licensing. No license changes "for now", licensing have no changes coming "currently". Kiss perpetual goodbye, folks. Enjoy the marked up Adobe Creative Cloud monthly online coming soon.

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