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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)

 on: January 30, 2019, 07:43:49 am 

Question- Since Allegorithmic is no longer the competition to adobe we once hoped it would remain and encourage adobe to actually innovate for once this decade, would you be ok if Adobe applies legal pressure in any way possible to stifle competition from coming up with similar functioning software to that of Substance?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)

 on: January 27, 2019, 06:01:39 pm 

Regarding renting, this actually depends on people usage.
It may seem strange for people on the forum as you are mainly « core users », but the Substance subscription is by far the offer which has the most of success (80% of our new users). The reason is that not everybody needs to use texturing tools on a daily basis, lots of users are using it « per project », and so are just paying for a few months, stop, come back later, etc.

My point is that there are different usage, and different needs. It’s all about the value you get in the offers.
That’s why we try to keep options, to answer users different needs.

But they still have the option to own. And if they ever go offline they can still have that.And while you say most are on subscription, it doesn't sound like actually most pay on an on-off monthly basis, just 'a lot'. But for those who have to go on-again/off-again, have you considered that they are stuck in a cycle in which they cant afford to own substance to practice more with it, cant showcase enough work with it, and therefore are in a cycle in which they can only occasionaly afford to take those types of jobs?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)

 on: January 27, 2019, 04:49:00 pm 

Dear Allegorithmic,

Since it is quite likely though not 100% confirmed, my question is this:

Can someone from Allegorithmic please explain how an entirely subscription based licensing system is fair to the consumers, represents Allegorithmic's core beliefs, and not anti-consumer as it is often represented?

I think that's about how I worded it before...

Also thank you Vincent for fielding questions in this new thread.

First and once again, wait and see.

Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imho (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair.

BUT having the option to buy, even if not used, is important. And I would say, the ability to 'read' already pre-made work as well.

This is a personal answer and reflexion

Thank you for the speedy reply Vincent.

I'm glad we can agree, the OPTION of being able to own software is actually quite important.
I think we may disagree on rent however.

Well in a way, that's actually a good example... of what isn't fair for most people.

Depending on where you live, Rent is abysmal, but if you can not afford a house, what do you do? You rent, and if you can, you rent as low as you can to save as much as you can, but thats often not enough , even if it means you no longer have money to save for a house. So in the long run, the money you would have had for a house, but was too little at the time to even put on a down payment, is gone, lost to rent, because you own nothing at the end of a rent cycle.

Adobe and Autodesk are the worst rent management companies that we know of in our industry in that example. Their bottom line is to basically push as hard as they can even if it means pushing out people who are more on the edge of being able to not afford their software, if it means their more corporate lock-ins will pay more and overcompensate for the loss.

I think this will kill off a lot of the base that helped bring up Substance into the mainstream. A lot of software is perpetuated through the users showing off to their art friends and their managers to help get things rolling, and I think this is going to hurt a lot of people who were a part of that spread.  Sure some people make more than others, and are well off, or their companies cover their license costs, but many do not.

I hope that's been made pretty clear by most people's concerns. I know some of it has gotten out of hand, but, you're dealing with an entire industry of basicly abused renters. A lot of veterans who have seen this pattern time and time again.

Thank you again for the response. I appreciate the time you're taking going through all of these, I know you end up repeating yourself, or are limited on what you can and can not say due to legal issues and just, not having that part of the deal worked out.

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)

 on: January 27, 2019, 03:50:16 pm 

Dear Allegorithmic,

People switched away from Adobe to Substance for 2 major reasons. One was they needed better tools for their pipeline. Another was to get away from Adobe's abysmal pricing system and lack of 'personal ownership' by removing any sense of perpetual licensing they effectively stated they removed the model from their concept as a software publisher, its a non argument to their corporate side that they will not use perpetual licensing because it does not allow them to have the power in their relationship with users.

Allegorithmic on the other hand was making huge waves with their licensing model. Not only were the tools better, the license meant that if you chose to, you could hold back for a while with a stable version, and come back another year if you wanted to. If you had financial issues you could HOLD ON TO your copy , not pay a while, and come back when you were in better shape. This was hailed as practically revolutionary for a company to do this. I only know of one company that's ever done better, and that was Pixologic. And to be honest after 10 years of ownership and Free upgrades, I would gladly buy another copy for $800 again if it lasted just as long and got the same treatment as before.

Since it is quite likely though not 100% confirmed, my question is this:

Can someone from Allegorithmic please explain how an entirely subscription based licensing system is fair to the consumers, represents Allegorithmic's core beliefs, and not anti-consumer as it is often represented?

I think that's about how I worded it before...

Also thank you Vincent for fielding questions in this new thread.

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Substance - Purchases & Licenses - Important question about preferences.

 on: January 27, 2019, 08:10:34 am 

In this debate over Adobe vs Allegorithmic, Allegorithmic has done something for a while now that Adobe, and honestly some other major players. refuses to do any more, allow perpetual licenses and paid upgrades to those licenses for minimal cost. This is something Adobe effectively removed from their core beliefs as a software distributor. Allegorithmic has been applauded for this for quite some time, and its a contributing factor for why people switched over to Substance over Adobe products.

So I think its important to ask, To the people there who identify as the core team of Allegorithmic, "if" the perpetual licenses are removed in the future as an option as it seems they will be, can you please put into words why now subscription only licensing (without the ability to roll onto an indefinite license with 12 months support) is fair to consumers and not anti consumer as many believe it to be?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 26, 2019, 09:31:35 pm 

Allegorithmic,

What do you have to say to all the commissioned artists, indie developers and hobbyists who propped up your product and got it pushed into production pipelines all over the industry to bring you to  where you are now?

What do you say to the people who will not be able to afford your product once its been re-priced and re-branded for the Adobe CC lineup?

I don't want to seem ungrateful, we are super grateful to the indie community, but I'd like us to be given props where due.

Indie developpers and hobbyists didn't push Substance into production studios. We did, by tirelessely vising every studio on earth over and over again for years and work them until we convinced them that these were the right tools for the job. The notoriety of the tools then trickled down from studios like Naughty Dog, Treyarch, Turn10, etc. into smaller studios and the indie community at large.
I personnally spent 2 years of my life constantly flying from country to country to present Substance Designer to studios who only swore by Photoshop, and slowly but surely, we changed their minds. And we're not going to abandon them, or the Indie guys, now.

As for the price, if you were able to afford Substance now, you'll be able to afford them in the future, don't worry.

No one is saying you didn't have to do any footwork. But Naughty Dog, Treyarch, Turn10, etc... the artists there are the ones you effectively had to woo to get in the door right? Am i wrong here? I can be absolutely wrong, but usually it starts with the artists all around the industry finding interest in your work right?

 They wanted to get away from adobe, you came in and showed them they could, so there is no way you were not aware that that was a massive selling point. It wasn't just the software, it was the COMPANY behind it, and that's part of what is driving people insane.

Adobe's licensing scheme does not GEL with artists who are limited in their income. Sure, it works great for a multimillion dollar company, but for the people in this industry who's pay has stagnated for 15 years,  the slow choke of adobe pricing has been a pain in every honest paying persons pockets.

And supposedly their pricing is even worse over seas?

On Top of that, we keep being told that you all have control over the product, but we just saw adobe release a video -without your input- showcasing EXACTLY what they want to push your product for... not gaming, not development, not even entertainment... Product Packaging and Identity branding.

Adobe Dimensions, good grief. You guys can not be comfortable with that one, and its worrying that that video got out without any input while we're being told that everything is still being controlled by the Allegorithmic team.

I really hope you see that we're not all just complaining to complain, there are some Very concerning issues already going on.

Here, a question you can answer:

Adobe vs Allegorithmic : How is subscription only licensing (without the ability to roll onto an indefinite lisence with 12 months support) fair to consumers?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 26, 2019, 06:12:36 pm 

Allegorithmic,

What do you have to say to all the commissioned artists, indie developers and hobbyists who propped up your product and got it pushed into production pipelines all over the industry to bring you to  where you are now?

What do you say to the people who will not be able to afford your product once its been re-priced and re-branded for the Adobe CC lineup?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 26, 2019, 04:24:27 am 

Here is adobe's first Allegorithmic promo.

adobe's understanding of Substance is someone trying to stamp 8 holes on a model using a toaster machine as a computer and trying to render it with the garbage called Dimension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SusZU-o_kds

FUTURE SEEMS BRIGHT!

totally sold out the company who understands Allegorithmic products and its soul.

Good luck trying to explain what 'udim' is to you bosses bosses bossess bosses bossess boss at 134234th meeting.

Adobe trying to be in 3d game, if they try to put their dirty hands on pixologic we need to start a kickstarter campaign to fund the company as much as we can.

Ugh... Yeah, it was pretty obvious that it was going to be used for this. Adobe focuses on its design and advertising side way more than it does the gaming industry.

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 04:39:03 am 

I would feel a whole lot better if someone with the authority to do so would come in here and reassure us, specifically, that we will still be able to convert our Indie License subscriptions to a Perpetual License for the advertised $49!

The answer is yes, and Allegorithmic IS Adobe today, our word has as much power as any other spokesperson from Adobe.

.... I hate to tell you but... Adobe does not have a great track record with its " word" ...  You might wanna walk that one back a bit.

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 04:36:22 am 

What are the chances that the price of switching to a perpetual license will increase by the time Adobe decides to let you make that announcement?

0%

Approximately how much time do we have left to convert our licenses into perpetual license?

If Allegorithmic is now Adobe, how much power do you, the team who built the company, software, and community,  have over the licensing of your product?

Will the leverage of being Adobe and not Allegorithmic allow you to REDUCE the price of the product?

If any deals are not met with good faith does Allegorithmic retain the right to remove itself and its original products from Adobe, since this is not a buyout.

Who in the Allegorithmic team has more power over the products than Shantanu Narayen?

Has anyone considered that the entire point of people using Allegorithmic's tools was to not pay Adobe any more for their what some people would call extortionist practices , lack of real updates, turning up and coming software into abandonware, and mistreatment of its user base by pricing-out its lowest income users?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 03:33:30 am 

What I would like to confirm is when will the merger take effect in a practical sense ie. when should I convert my subscription to a perpetual licence? The evasiveness of answers to questions surrounding the continuation of perpetual licences doesn't fill me with hope that it will continue.. At the very least can you please give us a heads up so that those who do not want to keep going with subscription based licensing can have the choice?

It's evasive because if a change ever happen, it's still pretty far away. When/if that happens, it will be plastered all over the place well in advance and you'll have plenty of time to weight your options.

What are the chances that the price of switching to a perpetual license will increase by the time Adobe decides to let you make that announcement?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 02:43:05 am 

Will Adobe as owner of Allegorithmic attempt to patent any and all ways of using software to paint or control multiple channels of texture and noise information for the production and export of materials and data for PBR And or other pipelines ?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 02:39:27 am 

If any deals are not met with good faith does Allegorithmic retain the right to remove itself and its original products from Adobe, since this is not a buyout.

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 02:38:24 am 

Will the leverage of being Adobe and not Allegorithmic allow you to REDUCE the price of the product?

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Substance - News & Announcements - Re: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family

 on: January 25, 2019, 02:37:14 am 

If Allegorithmic is now Adobe, how much power do you, the team who built the company, software, and community,  have over the licensing of your product?