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Messages - kevin.frey

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1
We welcome the criticism, expression of apprehension and feedback, but we will not tolerate profanity, threats or outright trolling, like any other community wouldn't either.

Whatever you guys decide for your company, you deserve better than that. I'm sorry you have to deal with that.

2
It's quite possible Substance will lose most of its user-base and all of its rep.

I doubt it. I suspect the losses will the indie's, but studios with larger cashflows will remain. That is the Adobe way.

3
I was looking for a replacement over the internet, can somebody recommend me Quixel?

Quixel is not great. It's really just a Photoshop plugin. Slow and very crashy. My hope is they build a standalone app, but they seem content with their Megascans and Mixer apps so I'm not holding my breath.

Someone else mentioned https://armorpaint.org/. I haven't used it so I can't say, but I'm going to give it a go.

Mari is often in the same conversations as Substance, but different and oh so expensive.

We live in dark times now.

4
I was thinking the same at some point. If they needed more money to develop some more features and stuff or needed more money for new hires... I'd be willing to pay more... So the perpetual license for Substance Painter which I use is 149$... That's a good price for what you get. I would probably have been able to pay more. Up to 200...230 maybe..  As long as I would know that this is mine, I can use it whenever I want for as long as I want... As was stated... I'm sure like someone said some people might even donate. Some would even jump through hoops of fire as long as it didn't go to Adobe...  If you said: Help us out here, we need more money to take things to the next level, we have to increase prices a bit, we hope you understand, people would probably be fine with that. People want to support an independent company that creates a very good product for a decent price.

I agree with you. I'd also been able to pay more... even for monthly indie subscription

Yeah, me too! All they needed was be honest with us and tell us they needed more money to stay independent. It was already a pretty good deal, now I am not so sure what the future holds because we have no details at all.

The only way I see this being fair is if the Substance programs have a separate payment plan on the CC and people who have perpetual get to keep the program as it is or continue to get free updates for one or two years.

I agree. I always believed the indie price was lower than it could have been, but perhaps their enterprise solution more than made up for any shortcoming.

I would have been happy to pay more than the $240 I just paid for a year, but I won't give that money to Adobe.

It's my expectation Adobe will bundle Designer and Painter into a single plan. They're too integrated to be rented separately, but Adobe is more profit-minded than this so it's anyone's guess.

5
Been looking at 3DCoat and Z-Brush. They look interesting but come with a higher pricetag. Especially Z-Brush. Forget about Mari. 2000$?? get outta here.


ZBrush may cost a little more but once you buy its yours for life with upgrades for life. I bought my copy of ZBrush in 2007. Its the same license, more than 10 years of updates, not a penny more was asked of me. But you know what, because they didn't push me to buy or pay for upgrades or do anything underhanded I bought more licenses for my home computer and my work computer, and converted a few coworkers into liking and using ZBrush.

Pixologic is a company that has done everything right in terms of customer focus and customer priority. Other companies should take a good hard look at Pixologic and do what they did. Thats how you become a stable long term and loved company.



3D Coat has a serious problem that should send every artist screaming in the opposite direction. They've terminated and revoke licenses on the personal opinion of the owners that the artists work was obscene (like creating a nude sculpture,  a nude human form, excessive gore, or that felt it belittled or demeaned their religion) without refund.

See their own personal statement here:

https://3dcoat.com/about-us/our-voice/

I personally would never financially support a company that will actively take their personal beliefs into action with how they treat customers and their own personal works of art.

My thoughts exactly. That's why I refuse to buy their product. I hadn't heard about them revoking licenses. Where did you hear that? I'd love to read more about it.

6
Been looking at 3DCoat and Z-Brush. They look interesting but come with a higher pricetag. Especially Z-Brush. Forget about Mari. 2000$?? get outta here.

ZBrush rules. I've been using it about 3 years now. The great thing is, you buy it once and upgrades are free. Always. So factor that into your decision as well. 3D Coat may be cheaper initially, but you'll pay for upgrades.

ZBrush has a very different way of working and a little difficult to pick up at first, but easy enough to pick up quickly. And the community is huge.

7
Taking the time to digest all of this and shed some of my initial anger and fear, I do believe Allegorithmic and Adobe have plans to continue developing these tools with amicable intent.

I even believe Adobe may have plans to introduce a 3D plan in their CC crapfest, containing these tools and perhaps others.

The transition may even be less horrible than we're all predicting and for a time thereafter things may be different, but not necessarily bad.

I also believe that won't last. I suspect in time, after the honeymoon period, Adobe will decide to sell and market these tools as they have all their others, which will leave everyone who can't afford them in the dust.

My sub expires in 310 days. I'll ride this out for a while and see what happens, but I'm still very wary. Allegorithmic has been a great ally and I want to give them the benefit of the doubt about this change. I can wait to see what announcements they have coming before committing to jumping ship right away.

My expectation is Adobe will do what Adobe does and stagnate innovation while asking for more and more money.

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That will not happen, we're not savages :)

Absolutely love that response. Thank you!

9
Time to learn Mari.

Can't afford $2000 for that. Yikes.

And what? We pay for a software not becouse we can not pirate it down in 10 sec, we pay for it becouse we wanna support it's developmant, becouse we TRUST in their development team, becouse we TRUST  in their leadership, becouse WE TRUST IN THEIR DECISIONS.
The relationship between a software company and thie community is the most important factor of their business imo.

I have friends that has huge software parks and they pay the most as donation to Blender : thats how it works.

Not sure what you're driving at. I've paid about $500 for two years of Substance, $250 at a time. I can't afford a $2000 payment for a license of Mari no matter how long it lasts.

I don't pirate software. I support development, but $2000 is too expensive for me.

You won't be paying $250 anymore, you fool. There's a damn clear reason why all 6 mentions of licensing this past day had "For now" "currently" "planned" etc tagged on. It's heading to the Creative Cloud, where you will be paying $21 each for Designer and Painter. So hello $500 a year, or you'll be paying $53 a month for the Creative Cloud Suite, so $636 a year. And these licenses are NOT perpetual like the $250 you mentioned paying. You stop, you lose the software. Period.

In 3 years you've reached the $2000 price tag of Mari, which you'd own forever with that purchase, and the price will just keep adding up and up. In 6 years you're $4000 in and still own nothing, cancel and no more Substance for you.

Also note that $2000 is only the initial purchase, it's less than $500 a year to renew the maintenance if you so choose to want the new features, which is already going to be the price of the Creative Cloud Substance Suite, so anyone with a budget is better off eating the upfront cost of Mari and own the software forever while having the option to renew a year of updates for the same price Substance will cost.

I think you're not understanding me. I totally agree with what you're saying. I made all the same arguments when Adobe went rental.

My only point is I do not have $2000 right now for a Mari license.

I am a programmer by day and 3D tinkerer at night so expenses like this are too high for my hobby.

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Time to learn Mari.

Can't afford $2000 for that. Yikes.

And what? We pay for a software not becouse we can not pirate it down in 10 sec, we pay for it becouse we wanna support it's developmant, becouse we TRUST in their development team, becouse we TRUST  in their leadership, becouse WE TRUST IN THEIR DECISIONS.
The relationship between a software company and thie community is the most important factor of their business imo.

I have friends that has huge software parks and they pay the most as donation to Blender : thats how it works.

Not sure what you're driving at. I've paid about $500 for two years of Substance, $250 at a time. I can't afford a $2000 payment for a license of Mari no matter how long it lasts.

I don't pirate software. I support development, but $2000 is too expensive for me.

11
Time to learn Mari.

Can't afford $2000 for that. Yikes.

12
The brilliant Wes McDermot will be replaced with a corporate robot button pusher with no industry experience or passion for the tools.

The team at Quixel must be cracking open the champagne right about now...... It's like finding out that Mike Tyson has been paralysed and will fight you in a wheelchair, 5 minutes before you're due to go 12 rounds.

I'm thinking the Uniblab from the Jetsons. :)

I thought about the Quixel option as well and doubt that will happen. They have lost so much traction. And who wants to rely on Photoshop for this? They need a standalone app.

13

No changes planned in our licensing scheme for now. Things will likely evolve of course and we will communicate about it in due time.

Here's hoping this overwhelmingly negative feedback about this decision influences decisions about licensing.

14
I really hope Adobe UI team does better...I hate the dark theme and the overall UI mechanics, its counter productive. And the worst, you`re not even trying to give an alternative.

Not to dash your hopes, but have you used Adobe products? They can't make a consistent UI to save their lives. How many dialogs in Photoshop can be closed with the ESC key and how many can not?

Suggesting there is a "team" for UI development at Adobe is kind of silly.

15
All the team members and all the offices are staying as is, nobody leaves, all the products are stll being developed the same way and by the same people.
This is not about money per say (hard to sell I know :) ) but about having the resources to build the greatest tools we can.

You guys have always been great and I *really* want to believe this. I'm certain this is how the arrangement is written, but I don't expect it to last. I've seen this before and fully expect it to turn south.

Team members will leave, licenses will change, costs will rise, development will falter. That is the Adobe way.

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