Author Topic: Base Color instead of Diffuse  (Read 16795 times)

Hello

Since the 4.5 update you have changed the output name. This sucks.
All of my substance are now incompatible.

Anyway.
Is there a way to rebuild my custom substances to the new output in an easy way?
And did we get an update for the 50 Game Textures, too?

For now i work with 4.4.1 until this problem is fixed.
Some infos and help would be nice.

Regards Malo

The naming change on the PBR Diffuse to BaseColor should not affect your existing substances. What is the issue exactly, what is incompatible?

Sure it did.

The output of my substance are flagged as Diffuse, that did the 50 Game Textures, too.
If i start a metal/rough project, i get by default instead of the diffuse output a BaseColor output.
Now if i try to connect my substance to the outputs, in material mode, only normal, roughness and metallic gets connectet.
My diffuse wont connect, because of the new output. Same with the 50 Game Textures.

The 30 Substances that ship with Designer works. Looks like they are rebuilded for the new BaseColor output.
Sure i could change on every new graph the output manually to diffuse back, but thats annoying.


For a better understanding, i have created a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7tRlnRepm8&feature=youtu.be

This problem goes throug all nodes that use now basecolor instead of diffuse.
It would not be a problem if basecolor and diffuse gets joined in some nodes, but if i try to mix it in the multimaterial node, i run only in problems.

You might wanna choose the old system  Diffuse instead of the pbr method.  so when creating a new substance choose  diffuse and it will work again
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No, that wont works.
As you see in the video i made at the end, the basic substances no longer works, because of the BaseColor.

Edit:
It is funny that nobody have noticed that the basic substances that ships with the Designer no longer works in Glossy/Spec workflow.
Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 04:14:15 pm

Hi Malo,

We indeed made the move from diffuse to basecolor in order to support both diffuse/spec and basecolor/metallic workflows.
Since the basecolor and diffuse do not store the same information we had to introduce the basecolor channel otherwise it would have produced lots of confusion (it's already not that simple to understand the difference between the two workflow, we should not make it even more complicated ;) )
We should have introduced right at the beginning when we added the PBR stuff but for some reasons we didn't..sorry about that.

Concerning your problem:
- you can keep using diffuse, just rename/change the usage/identifier of the output from basecolor to diffuse. I know it's not yet possible to save the template preset, it would make things easier.. The PBR metallic shader is made to accept either basecolor or diffuse.

- you can make the move to basecolor and this can be actually quite "simple":
  > don't change the output identifier, it may break lots of things
  > just change the label (pure UI), and change the usage to basecolor to make the "autoplug" work correctly

- the GameTexture substances are still using the "diffuse" usage. We'll update the file soon in order to make the autoplug work with basecolor

The basic substances in the library are not meant to work with the PBR diffuse/spec shader, the outputs are tailored for basecolor/metallic

Cheers,
Nicolas
Product Manager - Allegorithmic

Many thanks for the reply.

Quote
Since the basecolor and diffuse do not store the same information we had to introduce the basecolor channel otherwise it would have produced lots of confusion

Not?
Wes wrotes a few days ago this.
Quote
Base Color
Raw color with no lighting information. Small amount of ambient occlusion can be baked in if using it for micro-surface occlusion. The color range for dark values should stay within 30-50 RGB. Never have dark values below 30 RGB. The brightest color value should not go above 240 RGB.

Diffuse
Raw color with no lighting information. Small amount of ambient occlusion can be baked in if using it for micro-surface occlusion. The color range for dark values should stay within 30-50 RGB. Never have dark values below 30 RGB. The brightest color value should not go above 240 RGB.
Threat, second post -> http://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,3243.msg14976.html#msg14976

Sounds to me exactly the same.
Anyway, i dont have much experiance with Glossy/Spec. Maybe there is something different that i dont see or understand.
But would it not be easier for all if we call it Albedo instead of Diffuse and BaseColor?

Quote
Concerning your problem:
- you can keep using diffuse, just rename/change the usage/identifier of the output from basecolor to diffuse. I know it's not yet possible to save the template preset, it would make things easier.. The PBR metallic shader is made to accept either basecolor or diffuse.

This makes not a big difference.
If i use BaseColor i have to manually connect the Diffuse into the BaseColor for Custom and GameTexture Substances.
If i use Diffuse i have to manually connect the BaseColor into the Diffuse for the Basic Substances.
I have always to reconnect some Substances.

Quote
- you can make the move to basecolor and this can be actually quite "simple":
  > ...
  > just change the label (pure UI), and change the usage to basecolor to make the "autoplug" work correctly

Could you explain the second one a little bit more detailed, please?

Nice to read that we get an update for the 50 GameTextures.

yeah, this seems like a bad idea, there's no way you guys should be forcing a distinction between diffuse and base color - aside from the fact that all our substances now need to be rebuilt (i lost my hard drive, otherwise i'd be upset as well) , seperating what is really just The Color Channels into two distinct types is going to make headaches in the future for people creating flexible substances.

Quote
Sounds to me exactly the same.
Anyway, i dont have much experiance with Glossy/Spec. Maybe there is something different that i dont see or understand.
But would it not be easier for all if we call it Albedo instead of Diffuse and BaseColor?

This is true for non metal materials (also called dielectric, or insulator). But for metallic materials the diffuse contribution is null: metals reflect all the light they receive and do not diffuse it. For exemple, gold:
- basecolor = yellowish
- metallic = white

- diffuse = black
- specular = yellowish

Base color is very specific to the metallic workflow because it stores both the diffuse and the specular color information of the material. The metallic mask is then used to apply a different fresnel coefficient (also called F0) so that the material will accurately behave like a metal or an insulator if the metallic is 0 or 1.
So it's just not possible to use the same map (diffuse or basecolor) in both workflows.

You can call the diffuse albedo if you wish, it's a different word for the same thing. But basecolor is basecolor and can't be called albedo because of its duality.

I think the best solution for you is to convert your existing material to basecolor, this way you won't have to worry about that anymore.
To change the label/usage just click on the diffuse output in the graph and change the label/usage as described in the attached image.

I don't mention to change the identifier in case you have used a graph inside another graph (I assume it's the case). Changing the identifier will break the connection in existing graph: it will create a "ghost" red link. If you prefer having everything really clean you can change the identifier too but you'll have to rewire some stuff.

Let me know if the explanation about metallic/diffuse is not clear. Wes is actually working on something to clear this up.

Cheers,
Nicolas
Product Manager - Allegorithmic

Thank you very much for the clarification.
I will recreate my substances.

But now there is another question.
Modstly i use the B2M Light Node for my substances. But as far as i see there is no BaseColor output.
There is only a Diffuse output. Sure i could connect the Diffuse output into the BaseColor, but my question is, is B2M Light not compatible with the metal/rough workflow or is that Node only not updatet?

And if we get an update for that Node, causes that any problems with the substances i want to recreate?
I dont want to do the job twice.


The B2M light is indeed not designed to output PBR compatible textures. At the time we made this filter, PBR stuff did not exist.

We could eventually build a light version of B2M3 (which is designed for PBR) but this has to be discussed as it can have a commercial impact.

However, you could also build your own B2MLight, which will output the textures name you want: just copy the bitmaptomaterial_2_light.sbs file from the install dir (C:\Program Files\Allegorithmic\Substance\Designer\4.x\resources\packages) to another place and make the necessary modifications as described previously.

But again, don't expect the result from B2M light to be "PBR accurate".

Cheers,

Nicolas
Product Manager - Allegorithmic

Oh, yes. i remember, there was an update for B2M.
I understand the commercial point.

Thanks for the hint.
I play a little bit around with B2M, maybe i have luck and we get a B2M3 Light version for the designer.