Author Topic: Sub only?  (Read 1230 times)

I suspect, from what I read, this will be sub only??? if so, so it begins....Adobe...


I know its Open beta, but read that it will have  a Sub, and nothing else.

Yeah, I think your right.
I have been with these guys for five years now. I have no subscriptions. Pay for everything and no access to this new program. lol

The Beta is indeed for subscribers only, the e-mail seemed pretty clear on it too.

I'd guess they will give trials for perpetual owners of past versions in the future, most possibly when the product is ready and out of Beta.

When we introduced our subscription in 2015 (called Substance Live at the time) beta was one of the perks. Since then, We provided beta of our tools in the subscription. After all, this is a new tool, thus a new license and the benefit of the Substance subscription is to provide access to all the software.

Cheers,
Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 10:50:46 am
Director of Product Management & COO

was at GDC today, saw the announcement and was so excited to try it tonight at hotel but... oh:( in the Licenses there is no link for Alchemist Beta :'(

The “open beta” title at facebook and... everywhere is very misleading, it’s more like beta access with subscription. :-\

The “open beta” title at facebook and... everywhere is very misleading, it’s more like beta access with subscription. :-\

Yeah, was exited to try it but then - sub only (which is ok, if there will be a really open beta shortly after this)
Hopefully they give us "non-subscribers" access as well in like a few weeks or so.

According to the Alchemist page, it doesn't appear to be in beta anymore.. and it's available via subscription only.

I am a perpetual license holder with active yearly maintenance.  From what I can tell, in order to use Alchemist, I need to spend an extra $240/yr for a subscription to the same software+maintenance that I've already paid for.

Where are the options for those of us who prefer to be perpetual license holders?

I haven't seen anything official that states that we will get access to Alchemist in the future... Please tell me I'm wrong on this.
Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 05:48:14 pm

I spent the $10 for the month to add a subscription just to check it out.  And yes, I have several products under maintenance thru 2020 right now.  Will cancel if it's not interesting.  So far, I BSOD when I add one of my sbsar files :(

EDIT : Was possibly due to a sbsar file with internals over 4096 x 4096.  I am getting TDR timeout when trying to generate one preset per extracted color with variations.  I believe I have a higher than usual TDR due to setting it for V-ray, but need to check.

Still pretty magical when it does run.
Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 06:50:02 pm

I don't get why people are so against subscriptions? At least with these guys, we get 30 points per month with our subscriptions. So for $20 a month, I not only get all the software updates, but I also get to download 30 assets from Substance Source. My library grows every month. I also subscribe to Megascan for the same reason.
These apps are useless without content to use within them. Plus, I really do believe the subscription model is a better way to go when your budgeting. It is a lot easier to pay out a smaller fixed cost every month than it is to have to come up with a much larger one-time payment every year to upgrade. When you add all those together it can be quite a big bite out of one's bank account. I also subscribe to Adobe CC. It is way less painful nowadays I hated paying all at once for upgrades. And maybe it is just me, but I find it far easier to write these subscriptions off at tax time every year also.   

CMC


I don't get why people are so against subscriptions? (...)

I totally agree with everything you mentioned! I don't know what they charge with perpetual licenses for the yearly maintenance renewal, but if you are buying Painter and Designer with a perpetual license together it is 300 for the first year. Without having access to B2M, Alchemist and Substance Source.
I am a Poliigon customer, but i never bought materials there anymore after I subsrciped with Substance. Other stuff, like modells or atlas sheets, okay, but not PBR materials. I rather use the Substance Source assets, where i can tweak parameters, which i often do in Substance Player. The 30 assets alone are worth more than the monthly subscription fee. And if I have other work to do and don't need Substance at all for 1 or more months, I can stop my monthly subscription and resubscribe when I need it again.

I don't get why people are so against subscriptions? At least with these guys, we get 30 points per month with our subscriptions. So for $20 a month, I not only get all the software updates, but I also get to download 30 assets from Substance Source. My library grows every month. I also subscribe to Megascan for the same reason.
These apps are useless without content to use within them. Plus, I really do believe the subscription model is a better way to go when your budgeting. It is a lot easier to pay out a smaller fixed cost every month than it is to have to come up with a much larger one-time payment every year to upgrade. When you add all those together it can be quite a big bite out of one's bank account. I also subscribe to Adobe CC. It is way less painful nowadays I hated paying all at once for upgrades. And maybe it is just me, but I find it far easier to write these subscriptions off at tax time every year also.


I will say it  this way for some of you that don't run a business, or understand... or maybe want to see our point of view.....For example...If I sub to Modo, I bought Indie  4 years or so ago for 180$....and still have the tool update...
If I was someone who Subbed, I would of PAID  double that or more...and left with no tool...
12 dollars x  576 dollars.... and again left with nothing...... Since I bought it, I paid 180$ and was able to buy Full and get 180 dollars off......from Full as well, if I subbed, I would of GOT nothing.


if you are a game developer as I i'm. and many are...imagine paying subs, for Substance, Maya, modo Photoshop, and so on and on and on...That adds up per month...we make games... so we go 2 - 3 years no pay..imagine if we have to pay that every month, we would never be able to... we need our programs at any given time...that is HOW we make it in this business/...I ran a business for over 15 years, and now one for a game company, what matters more than anything ...is the BOTTOM line...so when your games are released...How much did you spend to make it....what is the profit.... Subs are a fact in the LONG RUN cost more money....and...Your LEFT with NOTHING.

I bought, Modo, Full, Maya Full, 2016 , Photoshop CS6....I owe NOTHING to any of them.... and we can use them any time we want..we have access..

If we where to sub to them....we would have nothing to use...

Its an investment, when buying these programs...When you sub, there is no investment at the end of the day.... and you are left with nothing after wards, unless you keep forking out money, and if you ever made a game, you would understand what I mean, any company who has, and ran a business, knows what I mean....  If you do this for fun....Sub all you want..Not all of us do this for fun..or PART time...





So as an example.  modo Full cost 1717 dollars...  if I subbed it would be 600 dollars a year..Lets x it by three years... 1800. ..and when done, I'm left with nothing....I still OWN Modo and its very useful.... and I can make a living still....  The list goes on, see some people may use it once in awhile a sub would make sense...but for US, it cost way more money as it is Steam takes 30% after taxes, and cost of software we are lucky to see 35%..of  our profits...with Subs, and yes I used to sub to software, it cost us way more.....at the end of the day...... and we are LEFT with NOTHING..     Maya 2016, I have a 20 man license, PAID in full, this means I won't have to pay 300-400 dollars a month per person...... Since 2016...... It works great and its PAID for and we used for more than one game, client work and much more...so the investment of buying software at the end of the day is cheaper and we are NOT left with nothing..

Bottom line, many people in the gaming industry don't have any business sense... sadly, and need to understand what helps them, stay in business, and that is investments. good ones and bottom line, are just some of them.....

I hope that helps you understand our side...


Substance, we paid 50-75 dollars a year..  for Designer, and another for Painter.  I own mine for ever... as others do. also you don't always need to upgrade either..if someone don't need something or want...

You guys pay 230 dollars...  and your left with NOTHING... So keep paying more for it....I see subs as useful to people who do this part time... or for a hobby...but anyone else who does this full time, you are paying way more..... Unless you sub once a blue moon, when you need it...Well, most people, want access, at any time...we can't wait..  So subs may work for some, and I'm fine with subs out..

but we want choices....period...and we don't want, companies raping us...why do you think Auto Desk is having issues now??? SUBS only...

WHy do you think Adobe is having issues with Photoshop.....same reason... people that run a business or do this full time, want choices....period.
Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 03:08:59 am

According to the Alchemist page, it doesn't appear to be in beta anymore.. and it's available via subscription only.

I am a perpetual license holder with active yearly maintenance.  From what I can tell, in order to use Alchemist, I need to spend an extra $240/yr for a subscription to the same software+maintenance that I've already paid for.

Where are the options for those of us who prefer to be perpetual license holders?

I haven't seen anything official that states that we will get access to Alchemist in the future... Please tell me I'm wrong on this.


This has been my concern, as a user of Substance, paying for every program since they released....I feel they smack us in the face....They did it with Source and now this program.......Mega scans tried this sub only for Mixer, it didn't last...Substance will find that as well...

People want choices, and we feel, we give them more money right off the bat, you would think, they would understand this but they don't...they would rather try to get MORE money from us..



So as an example.  modo Full cost 1717 dollars...  if I subbed it would be 600 dollars a year..Lets x it by three years... 1800. ..and when done, I'm left with nothing....I still OWN Modo and its very useful.... and I can make a living still....  The list goes on, see some people may use it once in awhile a sub would make sense...but for US, it cost way more money as it is Steam takes 30% after taxes, and cost of software we are lucky to see 35%..of  our profits...with Subs, and yes I used to sub to software, it cost us way more.....at the end of the day...... and we are LEFT with NOTHING..     Maya 2016, I have a 20 man license, PAID in full, this means I won't have to pay 300-400 dollars a month per person...... Since 2016...... It works great and its PAID for and we used for more than one game, client work and much more...so the investment of buying software at the end of the day is cheaper and we are NOT left with nothing..

Succinctly put. 

Subscriptions (especially when compounded) are just not workable many indie game dev budgets.   As more and more companies try squeezing their customer base with sub-only options - they will lose to perpetual license alternatives that pop up.  Affinity's Photo and Designer are full-featured perpetual-license options to Photoshop and Illustrator.  In regards to Autodesk - there are a lot of lower priced and perpetual alternatives such as C4D, HoudiniFX, Zbrush, Mari, and of course there is the always-free Blender nipping at their heels.

I totally understand the temptation to go with a sub-only model from a software dev standpoint - it provides consistent and seemingly unending income.  However, the fly-in-the-ointment is the fact that subscriptions subtly yet significantly shift the relationship between the developer and customer.

In a perpetual license model, the developer is always pushing hard to make the next upgrade a desirable release - they work hard to make their software amazing, or else the customers will not upgrade. As a result, the software becomes better, gains more market-share, and attracts talented people to jump on board and improve it further.

In the subscription model, over time, the developer begins to understand that the customer is stuck paying every month or else they are shut out of the software and projects may be compromised.  The developer realizes they have their customer over a barrel, so why push hard to improve the software?  Over time, the annual updates and improvements to their software dwindle to minor tweaks, bug fixes, and one or two easily-implementable novelty additions. 

 Anyone who has been with Autodesk or Adobe for 6+ years has seen this happen.  For a quick example, try comparing the type and volume of improvements in Maya 2016 (last year of perpetual license model) and Maya 2019 -- Then compare those updates to the last several years of HoudiniFX.

Eventually, the subscription model becomes its own undoing. The Developer is flush with (seemingly) endless cash, and it begins to bloat itself with new staff, marketing, buildings, etc.. meanwhile, the software beings to stagnate which gives space for a new competitor to emerge.  As subs decrease, the bloat becomes unsustainable, and lay-offs happen, people are forced to work long hours to make up for shortages, moral suffers, talent leaves, and the software dies a slow death.

I've personally seen this happen in a corporation I was working for.   I'd prefer it didn't happen with Substance.
Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 05:19:52 pm

Hi all,

Please remember we are in Alchemist forum area. If you have licence/subscription concern question please use Purchases & Licenses

Thanks,
Guillaume
QA Engineer
*****************************
Alchemist User Manual
Alchemist release note
*****************************