Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)

[Rectro30]

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
Edit: if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it, it's your. For the future hypothetical offers (will we still offer it?) this is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

I haven't read part 1, but as soon as I heard this news I was so sure how this would end up that I just didnt look any further into it.  Its good to see some communication but as of yet it will take some convincing that this was a good move, why would I say this?  Experience from many applications  being sold on over the years has shown me the trend is to go subscription, eventually once the calm has settled, or some have moved on.

Autodesk went subscription, Adobe went subscription, Im stuck on CS5, the once Luxology was taken over by The Foundry, they went subscription but offered perpetual still but under such high prices it redirects the potential user to subscribe.  Iray, Arnold and many other render engines are now only subscription.  This year my render engine of use Vray4C4D was taken over by Chaos group, no more perpetual licence. Corona now its out for C4D is subscription only.

When you say "if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it"  I think this will hold true, this same statement was given for Vray4C4D.  You will keep what you currently have, but next year there is no upgrade path perpetually, your simply stuck at the version your on, but you can subscribe if you want, iis this what you mean when you say "you will keep it"?

Where subscriptions and perpetual options are given its at a advantage to make sure subscription options look cheaper by offering the perpetual licences at higher prices, or maintenance.   I do remain skeptical because why would anyone make a deal without looking at the ins and outs of the licencing before the sale?  The visibility should be clear already, but maybe not as to if its heading subscription only but in how it will be implemented or put to the current users, or at what point.  Do Adobe offer any perpetual options currently?  This is a genuine question, maybe you do, but if you don't why would Substance be any different?

Why do so many not like subscription?  I can see the advantage in subscription if your using the software everyday, your making a good income from it, sure you always keep up to date.  Development can move faster too.  The down side is not everyone whats to hire software.  Not everyone feels the need to have the latest version when it may not offer any features that are benefit to them, that choice is taken away.  No longer does the upgrade sales rely on a good well featured upgrade, its rather your get what your given, and you will keep paying for it as you don't own it, I don't like this arm up your back method.  Even the current system in place points the user  to subscribe as without it Substance Source its absent, but at least the option is there, and the rent to own option I think is the best option that sits right in the middle.

If you Adobe had a rent to own option id be in right now but to rent all my software every year and own nothing but the use of it would be a very very expensive way to go.  Times are getting hard for many, and stability of life is on the fine line.  This software takes many years to master, much investment of time and money for training is put in, yet if for some reason one cant afford to keep a subscription they have nothing but files on their computer.

Dan

[Recon03]

Regarding renting, this actually depends on people usage.
It may seem strange for people on the forum as you are mainly « core users », but the Substance subscription is by far the offer which has the most of success (80% of our new users). The reason is that not everybody needs to use texturing tools on a daily basis, lots of users are using it « per project », and so are just paying for a few months, stop, come back later, etc.

My point is that there are different usage, and different needs. It’s all about the value you get in the offers.
That’s why we try to keep options, to answer users different needs.

Hi, respectfully, I been  a professional user for larger companies and my own.. I have worked for studios using your software and, now made my own company,  I supported you from nearly day 1...I have seen some bad things you guy done, to upset us, which happens I think with any company, but we supported you...I been a huge Substance user with over  thousands of hours on Steam and even more off..       So what upsets me, is yes a huge  % may want or use Sub, but this is why people like me and many LIKE me, who are professional,  and/or indie, left Adobe , Auto Desk....I replaced Maya with Modo and move it...I have not updated Adobe, since CS6, I still use sometimes, but refuse SUB only anything....which is why I don't use Houdini....  but I plan to since they offer more higher plans.. where we can license with out subs.... Adobe and Auto Desk screwed over people like me to SPENT THOUSANDS, and THOUSANDS and slapped us in the face..

I will tell you why...


One... companies  like myself, make games, we will go years making NO MONEY... from a game, so we cant have every single tool we use , charging sub fees...Say we cant pay that sub fee, we have NO TOOL....right? so that is the issue

With a license, we can still use the older license and be able to make that  living, we may be behind a version....but we still have a tool to make money since we bought a license, with a sub, if we cant PAY THAT MONTH we are screwed and cant make our living..This is a huge problem... imagine a indie company or smaller company...paying bills every single damn month.....it would COST MORE...for us.. by the time we release, due to STEAM and everyone else nearly taking 30% taxes,  development cost, due to SUBS costing more by the time we are DONE....we are paying, 60-70% , we take 30% how the hell can we make it? we cant..I been a developer since 1990's and I see this more and more with these stupid subs.....   and as I said, i bought all of your versions even if I didn't use....I  use Designer a ton....I'm not a larger Painter user...I like others better, but I bought all of yours to support you...but my point is, Subs at the end of the day cost more and if you don't keep subing, we are LEFT WITH nothing, indies cant afford that and make money, this is a fact.,....You guys use well its ONLY 10 bucks...



Let me give you an example, MODO indie was around 13 bucks a month, x this by 4 years...    I bought for my license...180 dollars, I still have by the way..... It would of cost me the indie more money and took more away for us to be successful ....So yes we know you guys need to make money and you do by charging yearly fees... which I'm good with and you should, I promote this to the asset store guys actually.....but don't sit there and say subs are cheaper.(I know your not, but I hear this from Adobe, its total nonsense.......they are NOT.. period.....They may work for some..fine, offer them, but if you take away licenses as Adobe did, you are screwing, us and I for one, would NEVER support you and about 80% of our textures are from Designer ones we made...I would walk, because you would put me out of business... period  I hope you guys STILL OFFER, the license.......Adobe lost me, and I own CS2, 3, 4, 5 5.5, 6  master collections, Web versions....THEY LOST me... since they  slapped me in the face...Auto Desk, I own Max, 2008, 10, 13, 16, Maya around same years, last one 2016 Full network license its about 10 grand..    and I wont support them...They slapped me..  you get the point, so if you guys do this, you will turn out like Adobe, with most people hating you, for slapping them in the face after all the support we gave you...we just ask, to support us as we did you from DAY 1. nothing more, nothing less...OFFER choices...... that is what users want!!

[Recon03]

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
Edit: if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it, it's your. For the future hypothetical offers (will we still offer it?) this is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

I haven't read part 1, but as soon as I heard this news I was so sure how this would end up that I just didnt look any further into it.  Its good to see some communication but as of yet it will take some convincing that this was a good move, why would I say this?  Experience from many applications  being sold on over the years has shown me the trend is to go subscription, eventually once the calm has settled, or some have moved on.

Autodesk went subscription, Adobe went subscription, Im stuck on CS5, the once Luxology was taken over by The Foundry, they went subscription but offered perpetual still but under such high prices it redirects the potential user to subscribe.  Iray, Arnold and many other render engines are now only subscription.  This year my render engine of use Vray4C4D was taken over by Chaos group, no more perpetual licence. Corona now its out for C4D is subscription only.

When you say "if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it"  I think this will hold true, this same statement was given for Vray4C4D.  You will keep what you currently have, but next year there is no upgrade path perpetually, your simply stuck at the version your on, but you can subscribe if you want, iis this what you mean when you say "you will keep it"?

Where subscriptions and perpetual options are given its at a advantage to make sure subscription options look cheaper by offering the perpetual licences at higher prices, or maintenance.   I do remain skeptical because why would anyone make a deal without looking at the ins and outs of the licencing before the sale?  The visibility should be clear already, but maybe not as to if its heading subscription only but in how it will be implemented or put to the current users, or at what point.  Do Adobe offer any perpetual options currently?  This is a genuine question, maybe you do, but if you don't why would Substance be any different?

Why do so many not like subscription?  I can see the advantage in subscription if your using the software everyday, your making a good income from it, sure you always keep up to date.  Development can move faster too.  The down side is not everyone whats to hire software.  Not everyone feels the need to have the latest version when it may not offer any features that are benefit to them, that choice is taken away.  No longer does the upgrade sales rely on a good well featured upgrade, its rather your get what your given, and you will keep paying for it as you don't own it, I don't like this arm up your back method.  Even the current system in place points the user  to subscribe as without it Substance Source its absent, but at least the option is there, and the rent to own option I think is the best option that sits right in the middle.

If you Adobe had a rent to own option id be in right now but to rent all my software every year and own nothing but the use of it would be a very very expensive way to go.  Times are getting hard for many, and stability of life is on the fine line.  This software takes many years to master, much investment of time and money for training is put in, yet if for some reason one cant afford to keep a subscription they have nothing but files on their computer.

Dan

I disagree, as a Modo, User, it actually cost less...most artist in the industry will need Modo..... all year, it will COST more...money, Auto Desk, Maya cost before around 3 grand..  now its like 300 a month? I didn't check.....NOT everyone updates or can every year...SO that cost a company......smaller indies are the future and are trying to make it, so it cost us WAY MORE money, that is a fact, I know I ran gaming business and been apart of larger and smaller ones... So the hobbist an sub all they want, but many programs want you to PAY for a year.. ahead..once that SUB drops your left with no way to make a living and YOU OWN NOTHING... this is why many do not RENT  a home or an apartment, your LEFT with NO INVESTMENTS....companies make it because of SMART investments, the future is smaller companies and others...If Substance, now Adobe  burns, us, they will LOSE many loyal PAYING customers, and THEY WILL MAKE much less as Adobe does today....AUTO DESK, has the same problem,, they make MUCH less, due to doing this...THE FUTURE in gaming, and many other companies are SMALLER companies...SO....subs work for people who do this for fun, or part time, but companies, NEED it yearly.....daily...

PS: Modo yearly feee :  $599 USD   after that  year your left with NOTHING...

second year,  599

Third year 599

4th year 599..

Your paying 2300 around..and LEFT WITH NOTHING.......

License YOU KEEP 1717 dollars...You KEEP for ever..   not every company needs the newest version either, but if we did, we pay maint. fee. 400 I think.  but we don't need to, I can wait year 4, and pay 600  = 2300 I still OWN my software and can make a living an update to date.


See the trend here, this is called SMART business...



if someone don't use it that often fine, a Sub works...

but for the MANY who do this for a living, IT DON'T WORK... and cost more, and they will put  us our of business...and that is the issue, Indies are the future ......Look at Steam... and Epic now..Discord and more..

So these companies like Auto Desk, Adobe need to wake up ..

[Recon03]

Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

I think most of us think that SP and SD 2019 will be the final perpetual versions and it could be that the last chance to buy them at discount was actually last year in the steam black friday sale. I'm kicking myself for only getting SD2019 in the sale and not SP2019. I thought I would have another chance. There's a lunar new year sale on steam right now and substance products have no discount. It would be reasonable to assume they won't get a discount in the summer sale either or the halloween or black friday sales and then around xmas sale time they will probably quietly take everything off steam.

I'm really interested to see how they are going to spin this as an "exciting new licencing plan" to "benefit customers".

by there comments, and how Adobe handles things, I would agree with you, this will be our last version after supporting them from NEARLY day 1 and we buy many licenses... its just nonsense..  but hey, they will PAY the price for going that route, we all know this will happen...Watch and see..   (

[Rectro30]

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
Edit: if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it, it's your. For the future hypothetical offers (will we still offer it?) this is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

I haven't read part 1, but as soon as I heard this news I was so sure how this would end up that I just didnt look any further into it.  Its good to see some communication but as of yet it will take some convincing that this was a good move, why would I say this?  Experience from many applications  being sold on over the years has shown me the trend is to go subscription, eventually once the calm has settled, or some have moved on.

Autodesk went subscription, Adobe went subscription, Im stuck on CS5, the once Luxology was taken over by The Foundry, they went subscription but offered perpetual still but under such high prices it redirects the potential user to subscribe.  Iray, Arnold and many other render engines are now only subscription.  This year my render engine of use Vray4C4D was taken over by Chaos group, no more perpetual licence. Corona now its out for C4D is subscription only.

When you say "if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it"  I think this will hold true, this same statement was given for Vray4C4D.  You will keep what you currently have, but next year there is no upgrade path perpetually, your simply stuck at the version your on, but you can subscribe if you want, iis this what you mean when you say "you will keep it"?

Where subscriptions and perpetual options are given its at a advantage to make sure subscription options look cheaper by offering the perpetual licences at higher prices, or maintenance.   I do remain skeptical because why would anyone make a deal without looking at the ins and outs of the licencing before the sale?  The visibility should be clear already, but maybe not as to if its heading subscription only but in how it will be implemented or put to the current users, or at what point.  Do Adobe offer any perpetual options currently?  This is a genuine question, maybe you do, but if you don't why would Substance be any different?

Why do so many not like subscription?  I can see the advantage in subscription if your using the software everyday, your making a good income from it, sure you always keep up to date.  Development can move faster too.  The down side is not everyone whats to hire software.  Not everyone feels the need to have the latest version when it may not offer any features that are benefit to them, that choice is taken away.  No longer does the upgrade sales rely on a good well featured upgrade, its rather your get what your given, and you will keep paying for it as you don't own it, I don't like this arm up your back method.  Even the current system in place points the user  to subscribe as without it Substance Source its absent, but at least the option is there, and the rent to own option I think is the best option that sits right in the middle.

If you Adobe had a rent to own option id be in right now but to rent all my software every year and own nothing but the use of it would be a very very expensive way to go.  Times are getting hard for many, and stability of life is on the fine line.  This software takes many years to master, much investment of time and money for training is put in, yet if for some reason one cant afford to keep a subscription they have nothing but files on their computer.

Dan

I disagree, as a Modo, User, it actually cost less...most artist in the industry will need Modo..... all year, it will COST more...money, Auto Desk, Maya cost before around 3 grand..  now its like 300 a month? I didn't check.....NOT everyone updates or can every year...SO that cost a company......smaller indies are the future and are trying to make it, so it cost us WAY MORE money, that is a fact, I know I ran gaming business and been apart of larger and smaller ones... So the hobbist an sub all they want, but many programs want you to PAY for a year.. ahead..once that SUB drops your left with no way to make a living and YOU OWN NOTHING... this is why many do not RENT  a home or an apartment, your LEFT with NO INVESTMENTS....companies make it because of SMART investments, the future is smaller companies and others...If Substance, now Adobe  burns, us, they will LOSE many loyal PAYING customers, and THEY WILL MAKE much less as Adobe does today....AUTO DESK, has the same problem,, they make MUCH less, due to doing this...THE FUTURE in gaming, and many other companies are SMALLER companies...SO....subs work for people who do this for fun, or part time, but companies, NEED it yearly.....daily...

PS: Modo yearly feee :  $599 USD   after that  year your left with NOTHING...

second year,  599

Third year 599

4th year 599..

Your paying 2300 around..and LEFT WITH NOTHING.......

License YOU KEEP 1717 dollars...You KEEP for ever..   not every company needs the newest version either, but if we did, we pay maint. fee. 400 I think.  but we don't need to, I can wait year 4, and pay 600  = 2300 I still OWN my software and can make a living an update to date.


See the trend here, this is called SMART business...



if someone don't use it that often fine, a Sub works...

but for the MANY who do this for a living, IT DON'T WORK... and cost more, and they will put  us our of business...and that is the issue, Indies are the future ......Look at Steam... and Epic now..Discord and more..

So these companies like Auto Desk, Adobe need to wake up ..

I agree rental for Modo is crazy price, but my point was when these changes happen as in the case for Modo the licence changes can be quite drastic.  For instance I used to pay £399 if I choose to upgrade, now The Foundry tie you into a maintenance if like me is a existing user at £399, but I cant skip a year at all if I do I get a hefty price increase for life to £599 every year, still comparing to subscription its better but the unit price of Modo has increased significantly which was once £950 now £1799.  The best and only way forward in this case is to upgrade Modo skip at least 2 to 3 years then get the £599 upgrade, but I heard that there is come catches in there too.  Modo is not a Maya, Max replacement it dont have the many features to be regarded as full 3D package which is why I had to get C4D along side Modo, Modo is a excellent modeller always has been its best strength.

I had high hopes that Substance will become the closer equivalent to Mari on a perpetual licence, but now I have my doubts, come on Adobe prove me wrong.

Dan

[Vincent Gault]

funny thing is, another (small) player called "Quixel" is taking the opposite route, regarding Adobe
Their suite was bound to photoshop since beginning, but the next iteration wont!

glad, i´ve bought their products, too.

hopefully, we will get Alchemist and a few more Painter updates, before adobe cut´s perpetual licensing and we´re all forced into their cloud and services.

I allways will remember Allegorithmic as a revolutionary and even generous company, that made great software for dealing with PBR texturing. they even started a little trend in licensing products in may different models, at least it felt so.

for me, as a one-man-show-hobbyist-kind-of freelancer they were kind of heros!

thanks!

Hey, regarding Quixel, they (or we) are not taking any opposite routes: Quixel Suite was a powerful Photoshop plugin, and they go for standalone. We are and remain standalone with our software  (there are no plan to turn our software to plugins )

And once again the team remains the same, and we will continue to innovate as we have always done

[Vincent Gault]

As is usual form for me this will be TL:DR for most probably LOL

But..since you said Adobe can see this:

To Adobe, and by extension you all as well:

There are many artists who work on a contract or per project basis within different Industries that Subscriptions just do not work for. It's the risk. The risk being that the subscription runs out mid project and you don't have enough money to keep it going and now can't finish the project. By extension, you now can't pay your bills and that issue can snowball.

I, personally, am only subscribed to your Subscription Plan (and I mean yours alone..no others) and it was for three reasons:

1) It was a great value between the wonderful software and also Substance Source
2) If times got tough or things got tighter and the $20 a month became a worry, I did have the safety net there to buy perpetual...keep going on my projects. Get paid..come back to Subscription.
3) It also meant something to me that my payments counted towards something more tangible rather than disappearing software. I don't want to pay monthly for years...spend so many thousands of dollars and in the end one bad month..poof that long term investment is gone.

There are many artists out there (2D, 3D, Gaming Industry - and in Adobe's case Photographers as well) that are Contract workers. Those contracts have peaks and valleys. People go through dry periods due to illness. They go through dry spells due to the economy. I get that most people would say that it is only $20.00...but so many software companies have now decided to go this route that "Only $20.00 a month" is turning into $200, $300, $400 (and sometimes WAY MORE depending what you are doing) per month once other companies add in their "only x amount of money per month". Now it used to be most companies had both. You could choose what suited your work, budget, schedule, income, time, level of use, etc. So some applications I may buy perpetual when I had work where I had the extra and ride that out for two years (I used to do that with my Adobe Creative Suite - upgrade my perpetual every 2 years for Adobe Web Creative Suite) and then others I may Subscribe to if the added value was there and if I saw benefit or low risks in doing so (low risk in my case ALWAYS being that Perpetual is an option). Now though, most companies don't offer a perpetual (something most are upset with Adobe about because we feel it started with them and became the standard.)

Now personally, I LOVE Allegorithmic, as a company...as people. If you look at my account you'll see the proof pretty easily (Ive bought extra licenses multiple times that I don't even NEED just to invest in your development - even as far as getting Pro versions when I don't make NEAR the amounts necessary to have to) I've subscribed AND bought perpetuals (and I am a company of 1 LOL) I did that because you were the only company anymore who I felt was HEARING US and as such I wanted to support you like I felt you were supporting me.

Subscription from a developer standpoint makes sense and I get that. Like us, you need a flow of consistent money coming in to pay you while you are developing and innovating. That said, like us, not always is that flow of money consistent when people may skip one years upgrading or when the economy is tighter etc. Now for you, you can charge Subscription to help that..but for me/most of us...we cannot. And that is where the issue is. I work project to project (much like anyone working paycheck to paycheck) Some months I have an influx of money and some months I'm stressing trying to figure out how to pay the monthly bills to keep my home afloat. The way you set things up, I didn't have to worry that just when I may need the software most...the software may say "sorry I need more money" when I may not have the money in that moment and may need this project to be able to make said money.

I truly hope Adobe is reading this...and maybe rethinks their pricing model in favor of modeling after what you have done here rather than changing you to be them. They lost a long time customer in me...and a devoted one. (I own CS, CS 2, CS 3, CS 5.5, and CS 6 - If I recall correctly - and the last two or 3 versions were suites) I've not bought one version since they went to Subscription Only with no way to get to a Perpetual. Instead I started looking at alternatives which makes me sad...I love their line of products but endless subscriptions to 10+ different companies isn't something I can afford or risk. I said that at the time to them..and it is still true now.

As they say you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip and some days I'm a cash machine...others I am very much a turnip. I need to use software that understands that and offers options for both.

Thanks for the feedback: I'll make sure to get this shared with the team.

[Vincent Gault]

Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

No one said that perpetual license will no longer be offered.

[Vincent Gault]

Hey guys,

in this post i just want to apologize for my reaction. I dont think i offended anyone personally but as employees of allegorithmic you didnt deserve this. It was just a big shock and i'm not a fan of adobe.

i thought a lot about what could happen in the future and i came to a net positive. what i can realistically hope for is that adobe uses the tech provided by you guys wisely. this could be the step in drastically improving photoshop and after effects. i'm pretty sure they will pump a lot into improving dimensions. i seriously hope your package stays out of creative cloud and just being a seperate thing. furthermore i hope adobe does not interfere with your development process in a negative manner - you have become a vital part in different industries.

...and sebastien being at adobe now can be nothing but a win for everyone.

Keep it up, you guys rock - lets keep it like that

Thanks for taking the time to write this ;-)

[ninsix]

Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

No one said that perpetual license will no longer be offered.

Unless some upper management over at Adobe says otherwise, it is a safe assumption that perpetuals will go away. Adobe makes is money from offering software as a service, not as a product these days. They know this, we know this. As such, the best way to deal with the assumption regarding loss of perpetual options is to simply get Adobe's upper management to outright say it won't happen with this line of products, otherwise the safe assumption is that it will happen.

[Vincent Gault]

Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

No one said that perpetual license will no longer be offered.

Unless some upper management over at Adobe says otherwise, it is a safe assumption that perpetuals will go away. Adobe makes is money from offering software as a service, not as a product these days. They know this, we know this. As such, the best way to deal with the assumption regarding loss of perpetual options is to simply get Adobe's upper management to outright say it won't happen with this line of products, otherwise the safe assumption is that it will happen.

Once again, assumption and speculations neither give any answer nor help in the debate. All the scenarios have been elaborated about what will or will not happen. I'm not saying what you are telling is not elaborated, but once again, please wait and judge when/if  we'll announce anything.

[ninsix]

Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

No one said that perpetual license will no longer be offered.

Unless some upper management over at Adobe says otherwise, it is a safe assumption that perpetuals will go away. Adobe makes is money from offering software as a service, not as a product these days. They know this, we know this. As such, the best way to deal with the assumption regarding loss of perpetual options is to simply get Adobe's upper management to outright say it won't happen with this line of products, otherwise the safe assumption is that it will happen.

Once again, assumption and speculations neither give any answer nor help in the debate. All the scenarios have been elaborated about what will or will not happen. I'm not saying what you are telling is not elaborated, but once again, please wait and judge when/if  we'll announce anything.

In the behavioral sciences, there is, discussed, a kind of conditioning which involves learning through stimulus. One such example is the infamous red button test. If you see a red button, and you press it, you get shocked. When you see another red button, you won't know if it will shock you like the last one did. When it does, you start to become conditioned with the understanding that red buttons result in a shock. By the 10th button that expectation is conditioned into the person or animal.

At the same time, as humans we are capable of pattern recognition. The pattern of Adobe, using software as a service that coincides with the removal of perpetual licenses is just that. You can tell us that it is not helpful, but it is only unhelpful to those trying to avoid the subject altogether. Simply saying "we don't know" at this point means that the user has no option but to look at the pattern, the "red button" as it relate to Adobe.

This is why it is imperative that Adobe's upper management makes it clear, responding to user concerns, that perpetuals are here to stay. If the rent to own or perpetual model goes away, it turns the product into a service. This is kind of important to the user. There is no wait and see when you already know what to expect unless told, officially, otherwise. In other words, its less helpful for "debate" to leave it as one big unknown. We don't need faith, but assurances that the corporation is on board with some products actually being products, rather than a rental service. =)

(While this may sound like criticism only, it is meant in part to be feedback. The best way to manage this situation, to get the best out of it, is for upper management to come out publicly in support of the concept and belief in products rather than services. Whatever path Allegorithmic via Adobe takes going forward, it would have to be on either the side that sells a product, or sells software as a service. They need to pick one and let us know. If its the latter, the switch into developing a service then much of the good will given to Allegorithmic in the past will most likely be lost.)

[Vincent Gault]

Is there a timeline for when perpetual licence will no longer be offered? If that is the case?

I would like to purchase perpetual licence before it's no longer available. To get the "final" version. But not sure how soon that could happen. Weeks? Months?

No one said that perpetual license will no longer be offered.

Unless some upper management over at Adobe says otherwise, it is a safe assumption that perpetuals will go away. Adobe makes is money from offering software as a service, not as a product these days. They know this, we know this. As such, the best way to deal with the assumption regarding loss of perpetual options is to simply get Adobe's upper management to outright say it won't happen with this line of products, otherwise the safe assumption is that it will happen.

Once again, assumption and speculations neither give any answer nor help in the debate. All the scenarios have been elaborated about what will or will not happen. I'm not saying what you are telling is not elaborated, but once again, please wait and judge when/if  we'll announce anything.

In the behavioral sciences, there is, discussed, a kind of conditioning which involves learning through stimulus. One such example is the infamous red button test. If you see a red button, and you press it, you get shocked. When you see another red button, you won't know if it will shock you like the last one did. When it does, you start to become conditioned with the understanding that red buttons result in a shock. By the 10th button that expectation is conditioned into the person or animal.

At the same time, as humans we are capable of pattern recognition. The pattern of Adobe, using software as a service that coincides with the removal of perpetual licenses is just that. You can tell us that it is not helpful, but it is only unhelpful to those trying to avoid the subject altogether. Simply saying "we don't know" at this point means that the user has no option but to look at the pattern, the "red button" as it relate to Adobe.

This is why it is imperative that Adobe's upper management makes it clear, responding to user concerns, that perpetuals are here to stay. If the rent to own or perpetual model goes away, it turns the product into a service. This is kind of important to the user. There is no wait and see when you already know what to expect unless told, officially, otherwise. In other words, its less helpful for "debate" to leave it as one big unknown. We don't need faith, but assurances that the corporation is on board with some products actually being products, rather than a rental service. =)

(While this may sound like criticism only, it is meant in part to be feedback. The best way to manage this situation, to get the best out of it, is for upper management to come out publicly in support of the concept and belief in products rather than services. Whatever path Allegorithmic via Adobe takes going forward, it would have to be on either the side that sells a product, or sells software as a service. They need to pick one and let us know. If its the latter, the switch into developing a service then much of the good will given to Allegorithmic in the past will most likely be lost.)

I agree with what you are saying, but if we don't have answers now, we won't invent it just for the sake of giving an answer :-)

Another great experiment is this one: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction.

[Fenes Octavian 0]

Just got my perpetual licence. Not taking any chances.

I truly hope you won't end up like this

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/02/activision-blizzard-lays-off-775-people-after-record-results-in-2018/

[Vincent Gault]

Just got my perpetual licence. Not taking any chances.

I truly hope you won't end up like this

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/02/activision-blizzard-lays-off-775-people-after-record-results-in-2018/

Thanks ;-)
(For info, Mixamo team has been multiplied by 3 since they joined Adobe, and we are hiring : https://allegorithmic.breezy.hr/ )