Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 158187 times)

Many thanks. Very much appreciate your answer.  :)

I think one of the main points at the moment and one that I don't think you have really answered, is that you are saying that you don't know whether there will still be X,Y and Z (e.g. perpetual licences in the future, whether substance will leave steam etc.) and say they are in discussions. I and I believe a lot of other members of the community find it unbelievable that you would sell your company to adobe without discussing and agreeing on these key issues first. I mean "Let's sell our company and then discuss how to handle various things _once we no longer actually have any control_" seems weird. 

And on another point you keep saying to trust you but trust is earned and recently in the steam winter sale someone asked if there would be a discount for the winter sale and Jeremie Noguer said "No, the black friday sale was the last one for this year". That was 22 Dec. The loyalty discount to buy 2019 versions for previous owners was still up at this point. But then when the loyalty discount had worn off suddenly there was a winter sale discount for substance products after all and on 28 Dec Mr. Noguer posted "There is actually a last minute sale right now :D".

Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 09:40:05 am

@Vincent Gault
thanks for the reply, a contact request (76207) has been sent for the mentioned issue.

@Vincent Gault :

In your answer to ilonalauraboyer:
"Whatever we do (keeping the same model or changing for a new one), if changes occur, the option to buy your perpetual license will be available for anyone who is under the monthly plan right now."

...you have been a bit too specific, at least in my opinion & specifically in those's who are on a yearly subscription  ;)

1.) Can you please shortly confirm that this answer also applies to all your customers who are right now under a yearly subscription (or just edit your answer accordingly) ? Thanks  :)

2.) And could you perhaps also confirm that it will still be 49 $ ?

Some might consider this question as "nitpicking", but with legal questions & under the current special circumstances I prefer clear answers & it would also help all customers being in the same situation.
(Especially if they have to make decisions now.)

Btw. my current (have been a customer for a long time) yearly subscription is from the 2018 black friday sale, also have a look at this short thread, where I tried to make clear as much as possible what exactly I am buying & with which options.  ;)
https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,26473.0


Refering to an older remark in this thread, stating the perpetual option is seldomly used:
I also use it very "seldomly", only every ca. 12-18 months, after I have "earned" the right to change it to a perpetual license
after finishing my monthly or yearly subscription  8)
Without this option, we would be at the CC license model, which I surprisingly try to avoid as much as possible.
And I doubt I would have become a more or less regular user of Substance if the only option would have been rental without
the potential perpetual "security" license option after 12+ months.

To the Allego team:
Thanks for answering all the questions here & and especially that you are trying to avoid "corporate speak" as much as possible - I appreciate that  :)

Merci bien & Cheers :)


Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 10:58:42 am

The future is real time 3D

I think my biggest gripe as an After Effects user has always been how dreadfully slow it caches the timeline. There's a character animation program called "Spine", by Esoteric Software, that provides real-time 60fps playback of 2D assets. No caching required. If Adobe can bring that sort of performance to After Effects (or any other software they have coming down the pipe) it'll be a game-changer.

Hey all!

I'm still reading through the first part of this topic (the closed one) and just wanted to chime in to congratulate Allegorithmic. I think we all know what a great company & team they are, and the whole environment from software, integration tools, Source & Share is what makes Substance very unique & appealing to me.

I also hope all the people at Allegorithmic are feeling good about the move to Adobe.

I've been on the Indie plan for about 2 years (pay monthly, although I was looking into changing the subscription to pay yearly). I can understand many of the thoughts that I've read about the purchase, and while I'm one of those that doesn't like change, I like the subscription model from some companies, while I recognise issues with it that some have experienced from other companies. I don't plan an dropping Substance or changing to a perpetual license - I'll just see what happens and put my trust in the company that they will do their best in regards to all the dynamics of the new road ahead.

Anyway, naturally there will be change and I guess my only hope is that we still see Allegorithmic maintain their independent nature in terms of how we have these great apps, integrations & the whole website setup. I can understand we'll see changes in the future & elements merging with Adobe, but I'll be honest and say that I've never really had a problem with Adobe. I know we've seen mergers go sideways & support hassle, but I guess I'm just hopeful that Adobe knows the spirit of Allegorithmic when integrating tools into their products, while hopefully we keep our Painter & Designer apps separate, but with new integrations (I think I'm just repeating myself now :).

But, coming back to the subscription model... I'm really happy with it, even the Adobe one. I grasp that some would like perpetual licenses, and it'd be great to have that option with Adobe software. But remember when Photoshop alone would cost something like £500 then £150 or something per upgrade? Now I'm paying less than £150 a year with regular updates and even the all apps subscription is cheaper per year than what it used to cost buying just one app. It has it downsides (not owning the software when one wants to stop the subscription), but I tend to feel we're in a better situation today (in general) than we were 5 or 10 years ago.

So, here's to seeing Substance moving forward and for the company, it hopefully feels great to be recognised for how awesome they are that Adobe wanted them, although we already know how great Substance is.

That's all :)

Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 12:33:22 pm

I think one of the main points at the moment and one that I don't think you have really answered, is that you are saying that you don't know whether there will still be X,Y and Z (e.g. perpetual licences in the future, whether substance will leave steam etc.) and say they are in discussions. I and I believe a lot of other members of the community find it unbelievable that you would sell your company to adobe without discussing and agreeing on these key issues first. I mean "Let's sell our company and then discuss how to handle various things _once we no longer actually have any control_" seems weird. 

And on another point you keep saying to trust you but trust is earned and recently in the steam winter sale someone asked if there would be a discount for the winter sale and Jeremie Noguer said "No, the black friday sale was the last one for this year". That was 22 Dec. The loyalty discount to buy 2019 versions for previous owners was still up at this point. But then when the loyalty discount had worn off suddenly there was a winter sale discount for substance products after all and on 28 Dec Mr. Noguer posted "There is actually a last minute sale right now :D".

So for this sales stuff (on Steam if i'm not wrong), it was something Steam added because they had a technical issue (so they added some extra days or something like that: I saw this briefly in an internal thread), and basically, it wasn't planned at first. Generally we never communicate about sales (before it's time to do so).

For Adobe, we weren't allowed to communicate anything before the official announcement for legal reason (Adobe is a legal company, and nothing had to leak).

We are not necessarily expecting trust, and I understand skepticism: many stuff has been discussed, but many options are still around the table. But speculations are useless, as they won't give any answers (good or bad)

Positive feedback also... I've been building professional pipelines and directing research and development for 15 years and have personally run into every kind of tool in the process. I've seen software come and go, people complain, and a lot of industry changes. Substance is still faster than a lot of stuff out there and I'm hopeful that Adobe has learned from past mistakes in acquiring similar tools.

Substance tools are the best right now because of the speed and ease of use you designed. You made the Zbrush of texturing so to speak. In the same way you could not possibly reach the same level of organic detail in modeling prior to 3d sculpting tools like Zbrush, you cannot possibly reach the level of detail on 2d texture painting that you can with Substance's workflow. There is just not enough hours in the day for any production to spend on Photoshop 2D painting and UV tiling like it's 1999. It is physically painful after updating people to 20 years later, and older designers and companies don't realize why the current artists are suddenly reaching such high levels of detail. If I get my team to build assets for any project, it cannot take months or we cannot stay competitive.

For the same reason when you have to animate 86,400 frames of VFX shots on a deadline, you don't expect even the largest team to do it all by hand. Or when you're building game assets for upcoming 4k and 8k gaming generations, you can't resort to Photoshop seams.

Dimension is looking like a quick product solution for brand managers who need mockups but lack professional designer skills. Substance Painter and Designer are literal design giants. I really do hope Substance is there to do way more than just making Dimension look good. It's like buying a paint factory just because you needed to repaint your house. Similarly, Element3D already goes beyond by an incomparable margin as well, which I hope helps the 3D growth phase.

Since there is nothing we can do but adapt, I really do hope you drive the 3D side of Adobe to new heights, but I also hope that Adobe sees the light when it comes to bringing back permanent licensing models.

Thanks ;)

@Vincent Gault :

In your answer to ilonalauraboyer:
"Whatever we do (keeping the same model or changing for a new one), if changes occur, the option to buy your perpetual license will be available for anyone who is under the monthly plan right now."

...you have been a bit too specific, at least in my opinion & specifically in those's who are on a yearly subscription  ;)

1.) Can you please shortly confirm that this answer also applies to all your customers who are right now under a yearly subscription (or just edit your answer accordingly) ? Thanks  :)

2.) And could you perhaps also confirm that it will still be 49 $ ?


To the Allego team:
Thanks for answering all the questions here & and especially that you are trying to avoid "corporate speak" as much as possible - I appreciate that  :)

Merci bien & Cheers :)

ok sorry i have been too specific: I you have chosen "whatever of our models" that comeswith the option to buy a perpetual license at some point, then we will honor this (regardless of any hypothetical change). (hope it's clearer)

question 2: it would be under the conditions you have applied yes

The future is real time 3D

I think my biggest gripe as an After Effects user has always been how dreadfully slow it caches the timeline. There's a character animation program called "Spine", by Esoteric Software, that provides real-time 60fps playback of 2D assets. No caching required. If Adobe can bring that sort of performance to After Effects (or any other software they have coming down the pipe) it'll be a game-changer.

Are you saying Adobe should buy them  ;D

We have the full CC and where thinking about buying or renting substance lately.
We were a little concerned about the price, though. Since we do make more than 100k but with 40 people and 99/month is still much money for us especially because texturing isn't our daily work were more about lighting. 
So now you're adobe and I have hope to get the Substance package virtually for free (within the CC). Do you know how long it will take for you to show up in the CC? Actually I'm literally checking every day now ^^.
Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 04:40:04 pm

Hey all!

I'm still reading through the first part of this topic (the closed one) and just wanted to chime in to congratulate Allegorithmic. I think we all know what a great company & team they are, and the whole environment from software, integration tools, Source & Share is what makes Substance very unique & appealing to me.

I also hope all the people at Allegorithmic are feeling good about the move to Adobe.

I've been on the Indie plan for about 2 years (pay monthly, although I was looking into changing the subscription to pay yearly). I can understand many of the thoughts that I've read about the purchase, and while I'm one of those that doesn't like change, I like the subscription model from some companies, while I recognise issues with it that some have experienced from other companies. I don't plan an dropping Substance or changing to a perpetual license - I'll just see what happens and put my trust in the company that they will do their best in regards to all the dynamics of the new road ahead.

Anyway, naturally there will be change and I guess my only hope is that we still see Allegorithmic maintain their independent nature in terms of how we have these great apps, integrations & the whole website setup. I can understand we'll see changes in the future & elements merging with Adobe, but I'll be honest and say that I've never really had a problem with Adobe. I know we've seen mergers go sideways & support hassle, but I guess I'm just hopeful that Adobe knows the spirit of Allegorithmic when integrating tools into their products, while hopefully we keep our Painter & Designer apps separate, but with new integrations (I think I'm just repeating myself now :).

But, coming back to the subscription model... I'm really happy with it, even the Adobe one. I grasp that some would like perpetual licenses, and it'd be great to have that option with Adobe software. But remember when Photoshop alone would cost something like £500 then £150 or something per upgrade? Now I'm paying less than £150 a year with regular updates and even the all apps subscription is cheaper per year than what it used to cost buying just one app. It has it downsides (not owning the software when one wants to stop the subscription), but I tend to feel we're in a better situation today (in general) than we were 5 or 10 years ago.

So, here's to seeing Substance moving forward and for the company, it hopefully feels great to be recognised for how awesome they are that Adobe wanted them, although we already know how great Substance is.

That's all :)

Thanks for this message ;)

Globally we are feeling great about joining Adobe, because we think it's the right thing to do (please read numerous previous messages: we understand that many of you don't agree)

Collaboration between team is now starting and we can feel a great will to do cool things.

No surprise, and even if we expected it, what affected the team the most, are some reactions we got. Not necessary skepticism, rage, or sadness. But the fact that some messages were directly aiming our integrity (our = Allegorithmic staff), that we are selling our soul for money, etc... To me, this is the harder to read (this and the user guide of my new Ferrari (photo in attachment in case it's taken seriously  ;D)).



Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 01:07:11 pm


Thanks for this message ;)

Globally we are feeling great about joining Adobe, because we think it's the right thing to do (please read numerous previous messages: we understand that many of you don't agree)

Collaboration between team is now starting and we can feel a great will to do cool things.

No surprise, and even if we expected it, what affected the team the most, are some reactions we got. Not necessary skepticism, rage, or sadness. But the fact that some messages were directly aiming our integrity (our = Allegorithmic staff), that we are selling our soul for money, etc... To me, this is the harder to read (this and the user guide of my new Ferrariv(photo in attachment in case it's taken seriously  ;D)).






Ha! And to be honest, I wouldn't blame anyone for getting a Ferrari :p. But I'm glad to hear you're all feeling enthusiastic and excited about joining Adobe and I completely understand the reasons why it would happen. I've read the Medium post and a number of posts in the other thread, and while I had my eyes wide-opened when I got the email about it, I can't wish bad luck, or project my thoughts on what I think will happen with negativity, because I'm just looking in & there's a number of very good reasons for joining Adobe to happen and I'd rather have Substance than to see it disappear, if that was ever on the cards.

There's probably many of us who feel for you all receiving a variety of thoughts (which are understandable because in 3D, we become very attached to our tools), but hopefully you can feel that there's many of us here that are supportive and never wish anyone to be affected by negativity. I guess it's a time of excitement, new challenges, possibilities and I can't wait to see what you all come up with and that's a feeling I think you all have.

I was a Softimage 3D user before XSI and then remember the thoughts when Microsoft bought them, then Avid, then Autodesk and when they ceased development I was gutted. Now, that's a different scenario, and while it was very hard to swallow, I understood why they did it. I might not have been comfortable with it, but there's a whole set of things in play (you will all know much more than me about this), that meant they couldn't sell it on, so I just accepted it and moved to Maya.

So, I'm excited about the future of Substance and Adobe. Like some have said, 3D is the future and it's moving at breakneck speed into new areas, so it sounds like Adobe is making bigger strides into 3D. What Substance has given us to make our creations that more better to produce can only be a good thing for the future with Adobe.
Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 01:24:51 pm

Whatever we do (keeping the same model or changing for a new one), if changes occur, the option to buy your perpetual license will be available for anyone who is under the monthly plan right now.

Here are two quite important points.

If the changes occur and you offer the current subscribers to purchase the perpetual..
1) will you offer the buyout based on the currently advertised annual price? Or the price might be different? My fear is that maybe the buyout price will depend on the new CC monthly pricing, and not on the $19.90?
2) Let's assume someone is in his 5-months subscription when these changes happen, and ler's assume the user pays the remaining 7 months to get perpetual. But can he keep downloading the 30 assets per month until the 12 months would have originally lasted?

If possible, please clarify with your team and let us know!

Side note:
..in my opinion, if you want the trust to continue then the buyout should be based on the current financial terms, and ideally this should be communicated now, so people can plan ahead. Also, I DO think that even if someone gets the perpetual, they will still return sooner or later for subscription, especially if the 30 materials are included each month. I definitely would like to have the perpetual, and I am also likely to return for subscription IF my options for this transitional period is communicated clearly now, and the trust is not broken by unexpected increase in the buyout price.

Whatever we do (keeping the same model or changing for a new one), if changes occur, the option to buy your perpetual license will be available for anyone who is under the monthly plan right now.

Here are two quite important points.

If the changes occur and you offer the current subscribers to purchase the perpetual..
1) will you offer the buyout based on the currently advertised annual price? Or the price might be different? My fear is that maybe the buyout price will depend on the new CC monthly pricing, and not on the $19.90?
2) Let's assume someone is in his 5-months subscription when these changes happen, and ler's assume the user pays the remaining 7 months to get perpetual. But can he keep downloading the 30 assets per month until the 12 months would have originally lasted?

If possible, please clarify with your team and let us know!

Side note:
..in my opinion, if you want the trust to continue then the buyout should be based on the current financial terms, and ideally this should be communicated now, so people can plan ahead. Also, I DO think that even if someone gets the perpetual, they will still return sooner or later for subscription, especially if the 30 materials are included each month. I definitely would like to have the perpetual, and I am also likely to return for subscription IF my options for this transitional period is communicated clearly now, and the trust is not broken by unexpected increase in the buyout price.

1&2: As I said, the scenarii are hypothetical for now (as we have to define them), but i don't imagine how we could make you pay more than what was planned originally. At worse i would see a solution where you have the option to pay the same amount that you would have paid with no change (once again, these are my words, but we always look for the fairest solution, whatever the changes)