Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 121211 times)

It's simple economics, Adobe has 15 million CC users willing to put up with the subscription model. Our small community who supported a company away from Adobe's forced rental system does not really matter in the end really. Even if we all simultaneously quit Substance products right now we are easily replaced by Adobe's Prosumer base at $20 a month.

Since the 1990's, Adobe has been the design company for Graphic and Web designers. It has never been viewed as serious 3D company, and barely a Film/VFX company. Instead of fighting for a 3D spot, maybe they should just merge with Autodesk already and become Adobedesk, the ultra-mega software monopoly that you just can't get away from.
We make an own the tools you need to work, and now you will pay us perpetual rentals to access your own work.

In the same way that no workman would rent his work hammer to work, digital artists should not accept the rental model in its current form. Software as a service is a the new talk of the town on how to milk consumers for cash. In the long run it will not work once every company is only selling rental software services and people realize that the collective they have to pay per month will outpace the pre-paid software licenses they used to own.

Rent-to-own or Perpetual licenses are acceptable and fair models. Most of us are even willing to own a perpetual license and have the consumer choice to subscribe to a major updates system.

This is why your current customer base feels betrayed.

However, it does not justify taking it out on the developers or disrespecting their team no matter how you feel about the process.

Thanks on sharing your thought, and without arguing on some points that were discussed a lot, I will agree with this:
"Since the 1990's, Adobe has been the design company for Graphic and Web designers"

This is true, as it is true that today, they are seeing 3D as the BIG medium of tomorrow, and they are taking this seriously (if not we weren't there).

So the goal is not to turn Allegorithmic products into a web designer tool if it's what you are afraid of. The goal is to gain the expertise they don't have internally (not as much as they want at least). And our goal is to take this opportunity to build this vision. You may not like the decision, and find it "easy", but once again, we believe it's the best one for everybody.

Thanks for reading ;)

Thank you for taking the time to provide direct feedback.

Believe it or not, prior to the CC subscription model I actually preferred Adobe products. I worked hard as a designer in those early days to full price for Adobe Master Collection all the way up to CS6. I have always been willing to pay to support paid software developers with great and innovative tools.

However, one day the company changed hands and all my investment into the software tools was now shoved into a forced subscription. Not only that, all of the time and training investment for me and my teams that were focused onto Adobe products were now linked into a pay every month or lose access to your tools pipeline.

Unlike an owned hammer, proprietary software licenses can lock up our access to months of work. Previously developed assets that can take months to develop for professional projects are often locked up in proprietary project files, which means that unless we have perpetual access to reading and saving our project files, or non-proprietary extensions, our own work ends up behind a paywall.

The result of the Subscription only model was to force our designers and companies to remove both Autodesk and Adobe products permanently from the pipelines. Not because the products are bad, but because we need unlimited perpetual access to our output assets, because rental tools are a financially a bad investment over the long run for us, and because online cloud only options are unreliable and invasive to any business who cannot have service disruptions or data mining.

Again, Algorithmic remains a success story with your team's hard work to change the 3D texturing game, but the whole reason a lot of people joined up was also to get away from subscriptions.

The future will likely result in high cost for everyone involved and I just don't see that as a tenable model for all companies.

Imagine just to work monthly per seat:
Windows 10 SB pro (coming soon)- $20
Adobe Suite -$80
Substance - $100
Unity Pro -$125
Autodesk Media & Entertainment Collection- $250
Houdini - $160

Total -$735 per month or $8,820 per year x 20 employee seats $176,400 every year.

To where prior we could outright purchase all the above tools for about $6,500 one time payment x 20 employees @ $130,000, with the option of upgrading every 2 to 3 years at a discounted rate.

This made the software license a company asset not a deficit and this is why we will never accept subscription as a good investment.

If you want our loyalty then keep the rent-to-own and perpetual options available. And if Adobe wants us back, then it should offer the same.

Thank you again for your hard work, and I do not fault you for making a hard choice. I just won't be surprised if Quixel won't partner with Autodesk next.

Thanks for sharing: I'm sharing internally as well

We will all just have to wait and see what happens. At the end of the day I'm sure everyone here including myself will manage. I don't intend on dumping Allegorithmic's products unless some very unattractive changes happening, both with design and pricing. Even though we rely on such tools, as artists we can always find alternatives if need be as we've all done in the past at some point.

As far as "conspiracy theories" goes, well... we can review those claims within a few years. We've already seen this song and dance in the past so I wouldn't mark possibilities as "conspiracy theories" when referencing historical events that have happened through Adobe acquisitions. These are very valid concerns and shouldn't be discounted. If nobody cared what would happen to Allegoritmic and it's products we wouldn't even be posting. Yes, some people took it a bit too far with death threats, and such... I personally had a good laugh over Adobe Dimension, and also voiced my thoughts on Adobe so if people consider that trolling, well... then so be it, that's their opinion.

No worries: I am not picky as well, but let's admit that the part one of this thread, was full of valid arguments, but also a lots of rage endless speculations and assumptions (some justified, and some closer to a Michael Bay scenario  ;D).

As I said it remains useful to capture the reaction of the announcement, but I think the conversation we have now will be useful in a different manner. part 1 captured the emotion, part 2 is better suited to have a real conversation.


As far as "conspiracy theories" goes, well... we can review those claims within a few years. We've already seen this song and dance in the past so I wouldn't mark possibilities as "conspiracy theories" when referencing historical events that have happened through Adobe acquisitions. These are very valid concerns and shouldn't be discounted. If nobody cared what would happen to Allegoritmic and it's products we wouldn't even be posting. Yes, some people took it a bit too far with death threats, and such... I personally had a good laugh over Adobe Dimension, and also voiced my thoughts on Adobe so if people consider that trolling, well... then so be it, that's their opinion.

Exactly.  According to post here most former mixamo guys were transfered over to work on Dimension.

I don't get how everyone acts like those worried that adobe can and will ruin this product are crazy people.  They literally did the same thing with mixamo a couple years ago, but at least us indies got another renderer out of that purchase :)


I followed all of this ... all I can say - I am where perpetual is. If it vanishes I even will vanish beforehand.
I love Premiere pro as I used it long time ago. And I would even become a full Adobe Suite user - we prepared to buy CS6, as the perpetual license was suddenly removed.
So, if you can convince Adobe to go perpetual again, we'd be happy to join the train - as long as it stays perpetual.
I would even go with the current model, if they (Adobe) would give us the full version perpetual after the full price has been paid via slow accumulation for the CreativeSuite. At least then one can feel save to not loose access to ones own creations. And one still can update at will. Or, what I could imagine would be best for our Studio: to use subscription until we have accumulated enough to finish the payment in a not too big chunk, even before subscription normally finalised to reach perpetual licenses. And after that we might update/upgrade, but we are in charge of it, as WE are the ones to have the oversight of our finances - not Adobe or someone else entirely.
That's my two cents about it.
Please give us clarity within the next 15 days about the current Allegorithmic Subscription to Perpetuals.
Also: will the substance package in it's whole be kept as it is now - or will it fuse completely to CC without any outside version remaining?

Thanks for sharing: I'm sharing internally as well

To look at it another way, is Allegorithmic going to continue making products (that you can buy) or force users into a service (subscriptions)? Whatever you guys do going forward should be phrased within the context of "are we giving them a product, or turning it into a service", as a lot of us do not want a service, but rather a product. Adobe wants everything to become a service.

Hey guys,

I hate to bring this up again, but I haven't got a satisfactory response yet and I'd like to highlight this issue and get clarification before I send a mail in to support. The full story is over on this thread: https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,27505.0.html but the two main points are:

1) When I first bought the substance indie live subscription the terms I agreed to said explicitly that after 18 payments I would automatically own the software, but 18 months passed and I was never sent a permanent license. I should own permanent licenses for Substance Painter 1, Bitmap2Material 3, and Substance Designer 5 according to the terms of sale I agreed to, but I can't find those licenses anywhere.

2) Around the time of Substance Painter 2 being released, I think, you seem to have changed the terms of sale for the indie live subscription to say that we had to make 8 payments following the release of the software to earn our permanent license, and that we had to request the license. You failed to notify existing users about this change by email (I definitely didn't get one), and I'm pretty sure I didn't open the software this entire time or agree to any new EULA.

I had no idea I was supposed to cancel my subscription and request a license to get one, and I only found out when 2017 came out it was too late to claim the SP2 license. You didn't notify me of the business model change so I had no way to know I was missing that opportunity. I'm definitely supposed to have a permanent license to Substance Painter 2 now too, but I can't find that license anywhere on your site either.


My question is: If I contact support, will they be able to give me those four permanent licenses that you agreed to provide me with but that I somehow missed claiming? That's Substance Painter 1, Bitmap2Material 3, Substance Designer 5, and Substance Painter 2. I'm aware that these are old versions of the software and no longer officially supported, but I'd very much like to get those permanent licenses I'm owed as members of my team do want to use the older versions. I'm very happy to keep my subscription going or pay the $49 fee on cancellation for licenses to the latest version, but I do want those older licenses I was promised.

Second question: If we cancel and pay the $49 fee, what happens to our access to Substance Source and credits accumulated in it?
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 11:31:22 pm

Just had a look at the "Fuse and Mixamo Future Road Map Plans"-thread over at the Adobe forums. It is a pretty heartbreaking read in my opinion. The Mixamo team doesn't have time to pursue more specialized projects like Fuse because at Adobe they are developing multiple 3D-Apps for a broad audience.

I don't think with the Substance suite it is necessarily the same thing as with Fuse but it also is kind of specialized in its current form. So I would like to know: what is Adobe's vision for 3D, especially in relation to Substance? Does it allow for specialized tools and Game Dev centric programs?
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 11:46:47 pm

As a long time user and supporter I would like to give my view on this statement by Vincent.

"Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imo (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair."
 
I CHOOSE to pay subscription for 2 reasons only.

1 - I want access to Substance source as a way to learn Designer
2 - I actually choose to pay  the continued subscription as I feel/felt you guys deserved it and I wanted to contribute to development, even if it cost me more!,This is not true now it's going to Adobe, I just don't feel the same way I am truly sorry but that's how I feel, I feel crappy about it but...

I could have purchased a perpetual ages ago, I have been on subscription  WELL over a year.... closer to 2.

Most users love Allegorithmic, But in my case it's not about you, it's that we don't trust Adobe and don't want to be forced to have dealings with them at all on any level, at least that's my feeling.

Had The Foundry not taken Mari and you had done this with  them that would have been awesome IMO.

I will keep using  Substance Suite as I have spent a lot of time using/teaching it and frankly I have too much time  invested in it to abandon it but REALLY not happy to have to deal with Adobe.
BTW I don't use Photoshop either.



This discussion caused me to take a moment to look at how many system images and triple backups, and legacy hardware systems I keep just to be able to always have access to older files. So adding one more to the mix won't hurt my feelings 'too much'. Still this is the type of thing that will cause people to look at other options, which may be a good thing all said and done in the long run, still considering how little support for perpetual licences ( not to mention hindrances they provide )there is from anyplace that has gone subscription it just means that I'll be buying a few more hard drives and if worst comes to worst I'll only use them on off line systems.

But yeah, I dedicate about 8 square feet of floor space to maintain access to old files.

"Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imo (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair."
 
I could have purchased a perpetual ages ago, I have been on subscription  WELL over a year.... closer to 2.
It's worse in my case, I've been paying for 4 years and never converted it to perpetual because Allegorithmic literally never told me I had to do it. I bought in right at the very start of the indie live license, and the terms I bought under said that I would automatically own the software after 18 payments. It never said anything about cancelling the subscription or submitting a request to get those permanent licenses, and they never sent me any notification that they were changing those terms.

So stupid me kept paying for 4 years (even when I didn't need to use the software for most of that time) thinking I was at least banking those permanent licenses, and now that I've checked to make sure I have them, it turns out I've been cheated. When Vincent says most people are in the subscription and haven't converted to permanent licenses, I have to wonder how many are in my position and were never told they had to request their licenses manually or that there was some kind of time limit.

I don't even know when that information and those terms were added to the website, but they weren't there in 2015 when I bought. The 2015 website straight up says "This monthly fee goes toward the payment of the actual full license; Once you paid the full price, that’s it. The software is yours forever."

Vincent, now that a lot of people(myself included) have calmed down and the drama has somewhat subsided, my primary concern is the direction that your new 'Adobe 3D division' will take.

As stated, Allego have become a part of Adobe to lead the way into the uncharted 3D domain. But first, a relevant anecdote:

Just over a year ago on the Mixamo forums Adobe axed UE4 support overnight with ZERO warning. The outrage thread that followed was from many concerned indie-devs who were in the middle of projects that were built entirely around the Mixamo UE4 workflow. A solitary Adobe 'PR-woman' appeared on the thread with scripted corporate platitudes and absolutely no explanation other than: 'Adobe currently don't have the resources to continue supporting the UE4 tools for Mixamo......'

Really? Adobe, one of the biggest graphic software companies in the world haven't got the resources to assign a single programmer to this task?

Later, it transpired, that the real reason(admitted by this corporate talking head) was that Adobe were concentrating all resources on their new project that would revolutionise the 3D industry.....That project was 'Project Felix' - now known as Dimensions. So basically, Adobe killed off a fantastic pipeline that many artists/devs relied on for important work in favour of their 'Keyshot for soccer moms' deadware that they call Dimensions.

This is how many of us see Adobe's attitude to innovation, to artists, to serious pipeline workflows, to creative freedom......as practically non-existent at worst, and sterile at best.

So, with all of this in mind, my question is what exactly was Adobe's proposal to Allego that concerned entering the 3D market that go Allego to agree?

1 - does Adobe intend to allow you to develop primarily with the games industry in mind?

2 - does Adobe want you to pursue an Adobe-centric pipeline that will favour using Substance tools in Dimensions?

3 - can you give us some details on what exactly was Adobe's vision when they said that they wanted to enter 3D?

Pricing and sub models aside, the direction that Allego will now take, and what specific fields in 3D you will focus on is much more important to me than haggling over the price. As a long-term Max user I've been through all the subscription Vs perpetual madness over the last few years and I still use Max. And I will still use Substance tools because they are the best at what they do, and have revolutionised the entire games industry. I just spent 12 solid hours working in Painter, ffs! :)

Painter has become so entrenched in everything that I do that I really can't imagine life without it. The thoughts of losing that power or having it diluted/dumbed down/hacked apart for the sake of some 'logo designer's' inability to grasp the 3rd dimension kills me.

Any anger I've felt or displayed is purely a reaction to the dread that your incredibly creative team and tools will be utterly wasted by whatever endevour a company like Adobe may have in mind. That's my concern.

@musashidan

About the Mixamo case, the Mixamo team has been following the reactions to the announcement closely as well, since they are now part of that same 3D initiative at Adobe, and I believe they will reach out in the coming days to shed some light on what happened since they joined Adobe.

Now for your 3 questions:

1. The future is real time 3D, that's the reason we are here in the first place, and that's the reason Adobe reach out to us. Game technologies and workflows is what drives every other industry jumping in the 3D bandwagon, and the game industry still represents the majority of our users and revenue, so yes, the needs of the game industry are and will still be front and center when it comes to Painter and Designer.

2. We will improve the synergy between the Substance tools and Dimension, not by dumbing down our tools, but by improving Dimension and adding the right features in Substance to easily work with both.

Dimension is actually a typical example of why we joined Adobe. We've been wanting to work on a tool to setup and render complex scenes for years and years. We know what we want to do, how to do it, how to make it great, we have tons of design documents, but we've never had the capacity to hire a team to work on it, by lack of funding, lack of time, lack of being able to attract the talents we're after. Dimension can become this tool now and both teams can work together.

It's still a very young product though, it only came out of beta last year. Do you remember Substance Designer 1.0 or Substance Painter 1.0? it wasn't much better (it was actually much worse) in terms of usability or workflow. But it has huge potential to become something amazing for many people including the game industry, and you will see drastic improvements very soon.

3. If I had to give a hint without being too specific: Today's commercials are printed on paper or displayed on a flat screen, and today's artworks are (mostly) still painted and printed on 2d canvas. How do you think these commercials and artworks will materialize in 10 or 15 years? Going back to my first point: "The future is real time 3D".

And thank you for the kind words ;)
Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 04:40:12 am

Jeremie, thank you for the informed response. The thing is though, having looked at what Dimensions is I have no idea why on earth any artist in the games industry would ever have a need for it? We have UE4/Unity/EEVEE/Toolbag 3, and even Painter to look dev our real-time assets and test them in-engine. Any serious pipeline is going to involve any of the above plus the 3D DCC 'hub' program(Max/Maya/Blender/Modo) Where does it fit in, exactly.

What does Dimensions have to do with the real-time industry? Isn't it a biased raytracer? I realise that in a few years real-time raytracing may very well be the next 'big step forward' as it's already being partially implemented in some cases, but this will be in a true environment like UE4.

This is what I meant when I said that Substance tools would be wasted in an environment like Dimensions. If I do want to render my game assets offline why would I ever want to do it in Dimensions when I can use Arnold or Corona instead? This is what worries me the most, Substance team members and tools being used to 'jump on the 3D bandwagon' - as you put it - so Adobe can put smiles back on the faces of corporate logo designers. Not cool. :) I know it's early days, but I'm very doubtful that cutting-edge games industry workflows/pipelines(that Allego have excelled at) will be featured anywhere prominently in an Adobe office space......

And thanks for the news about the Mixamo team. It's great to think that they may not be dead and buried along with their fantastic tools and ideas.

We hate you Adobe. Working with your software is like dealing with the devil. Sure works magic when you want it to, but I die inside a little every single time. Is there any way you could return unused portions of my soul? I would like to dedicate Steppenwolf's "The Pusher" just for you.  >:(

@musashidan Corporate logo designers need love too ;D