Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 158256 times)

I hope Adobe is taking a good, long look at these forums and the responses and if they are not Allegorithmic should suggest that they should.

People are not irrationally against big corporations but we have been burned many times by huge companies like EA, Activision and sometimes Bethesda. On the other hand, people love Valve for what they are doing with Steam. So, be more like Valve and less like EA and people will give money to you willingly. They won't feel like they are forced to give money to a company they dislike. Provide good services, good and fair platforms for your products and people will start changing their opinion. A happy customer is a returning customer.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:41:49 pm

So an easy one: "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
If it was the reason then we would have been really stupid  ;D

Allegorithmic would have gained (a lot more) value just by waiting 1 or 2 years.
+ we have received a lot of offers in 2018 (investment funds, other companies): we just chose it because of it the best option regarding of the goals we want to achieve.

So cash was low in the list, regarding the decision to join Adobe (sorry I have to go: my private jet is waiting for me to go to Ibiza)

This doesn't help. The reason? Simple. On page 2 you admit that the sale to Adobe is for a "legally undisclosed number". Furthermore Jerc also dropped this in another thread, he said and I quote "Allegorithmic was too attracted to the financial backing Adobe can bring to the table."

So this mixed messaging is doing you no favors, especially now that the community is more or less on guard due to Adobe worming its way into the picture. One cannot say it was not about the money at this point based on those to comments alone. If you sell out, you sell out, regardless of the reasons. Granted, I think Allegoritmic's reasons might be different than a quick "get rich" scheme, but it still involves caving in and giving away the IP to a corporate entity for the sake of financial backing.

For many of us, this move was unnecessary. You don't need a massive team and high cost offices with massive bills to pay in order to "innovate" and develop great software. Many other independent studios have done this with as little as 1 to 2 highly skilled developers. The Affinity team which competes with Photoshop and Designer only has between 13-14, 3D Coat has 1 primary developer and some helpers...

...Thus many can only take an educated guess as to why Allegorithmic went with Adobe. Either its because Allego was impatient to get to their perceived finish line and took what appears to be an "easy route", or the offer to play in the "big league" was too attractive, thus the sale was also a mix of a "job offers" for a higher profile company. Both come across as developer centric decisions (whats in their own best interest) as opposed to whats in the best interest of the end user.

A reminder, a lot of the willingness to buy into and support Allegorithmic's products, to help give them the financial backing to keep going, had a lot more to do with the fact you were NOT Adobe, and could grow up to compete with them, rather than just the product itself. I think you guys over at Allego believe it was just because you made a great product, that really isnt the case. Obviously you need a decent product sell, but a lot of people were also buying into the potential of the said product. Potential includes not being part of Adobe's lineup. So in that sense, it really does look like a kind of betrayal to some users. Buying products in this industry is in part a kind of user investment into its future. If at any point you say "our ultimate goal is to sell to adobe/autodesk", then that user support will largely vanish.

Whats the point of starting new companies and supporting them if they are just going to turn over and sell to the giants that are hated? You see where we are coming from? Allegorithmic, rather Adobe, will probably never get to the point where you guys are going to be accepted now. The close knit, community trust factor, is largely going to diminish.

You guys might not even like how the corporate structure changes who you were, and will end up leaving and moving on to something else, much like what we saw with Luxology turning into Foundry. Everyone went in with high expectations and hated the stiffling corporate culture that creeped in. There is that sense that you can go in and change everything from the inside, but in reality its the opposite. It changes you. At the end of the day, your own IP is no longer in your hands and you just don't want to be a part of it anymore. If someone calls you guys "naive", it would most likely be based on that understanding of how this all plays out.

Anyways... as for as where to go from here (positive feedback). I highly recommend doing everything in your power to remain, at least on the surface, visibly, as independent from Adobe as possible. Keep the Allegorithmic branding, separate yourselves from CC, treat the products as a subsidiary rather than part of Adobe's main lineup, otherwise the affiliation to Adobe alone will be a major deterring factor. Too many of us will not, ever, install CC (not anymore). This is in everyone's best interest, yours, Allegorithmics...and Adobes.

Cheers

Thanks for sharing your feeling. I'm the first here to admit that Adobe didn't care properly about the (3D) games and VFX markets. We (Allegorithmic) "stole" the 3d texturing market, from Photoshop, first because of the tools (hopefully), and also the fact that there was almost reaction from Adobe to retain the gaming market. One of the reasons being it wasn't their core audience. By joining them, we bring the tools of course, but also the way to talk/exchange/support the game and VFX community (and we'll make sure to build proper dedicated channels to keep the communication strong).


For the strategy reasons we gave, you may not agree, but they remain the same, so I won't argue, and will just disagree.

Finally, I really hope we got success for the products and support we deliver (and not just for not being someone you don't like. We have been around since 2003, and started to meet 'real' success around 2014: it came from being able to innovate and adapt to your needs. No one came to us saying, "I am going with you because you guys are not Adobe", neither when we were having tough time for 11 years, nor when success was finally here.

Once again, your concerns are legit, but our goal is to make this 3D initiative a success, and to bring not only our products, but also our way to deal with th community.

I hope it help, and wish us to succeed in this ;)

If Adobe could understand the vast percentages they have lost in $$ from that, they might change their tune (tho I wouldnt hold my breath lol)

Sadly, this is not the case. CC has been an immense success story for them. The numbers just do not support this. They haven't lost anything, they have gained. I don't doubt that is exactly what Adobe told to Allegorithmic as well. Don't believe the shitstorm, here are the actual numbers that clearly show the vast majority of people are all over CC. And then of course you can add on top of that other positive (from Adobe's point of view) aspects of CC, like a more controlled and steady stream of money with less risk which results in better development of the software (if it only were so but I'm sure that's what they're saying).

It's simple economics, Adobe has 15 million CC users willing to put up with the subscription model. Our small community who supported a company away from Adobe's forced rental system does not really matter in the end really. Even if we all simultaneously quit Substance products right now we are easily replaced by Adobe's Prosumer base at $20 a month.

Since the 1990's, Adobe has been the design company for Graphic and Web designers. It has never been viewed as serious 3D company, and barely a Film/VFX company. Instead of fighting for a 3D spot, maybe they should just merge with Autodesk already and become Adobedesk, the ultra-mega software monopoly that you just can't get away from.
We make an own the tools you need to work, and now you will pay us perpetual rentals to access your own work.

In the same way that no workman would rent his work hammer to work, digital artists should not accept the rental model in its current form. Software as a service is a the new talk of the town on how to milk consumers for cash. In the long run it will not work once every company is only selling rental software services and people realize that the collective they have to pay per month will outpace the pre-paid software licenses they used to own.

Rent-to-own or Perpetual licenses are acceptable and fair models. Most of us are even willing to own a perpetual license and have the consumer choice to subscribe to a major updates system.

This is why your current customer base feels betrayed.

However, it does not justify taking it out on the developers or disrespecting their team no matter how you feel about the process.

Thanks on sharing your thought, and without arguing on some points that were discussed a lot, I will agree with this:
"Since the 1990's, Adobe has been the design company for Graphic and Web designers"

This is true, as it is true that today, they are seeing 3D as the BIG medium of tomorrow, and they are taking this seriously (if not we weren't there).

So the goal is not to turn Allegorithmic products into a web designer tool if it's what you are afraid of. The goal is to gain the expertise they don't have internally (not as much as they want at least). And our goal is to take this opportunity to build this vision. You may not like the decision, and find it "easy", but once again, we believe it's the best one for everybody.

Thanks for reading ;)

If Adobe could understand the vast percentages they have lost in $$ from that, they might change their tune (tho I wouldnt hold my breath lol)

Sadly, this is not the case. CC has been an immense success story for them. The numbers just do not support this. They haven't lost anything, they have gained. I don't doubt that is exactly what Adobe told to Allegorithmic as well. Don't believe the shitstorm, here are the actual numbers that clearly show the vast majority of people are all over CC. And then of course you can add on top of that other positive (from Adobe's point of view) aspects of CC, like a more controlled and steady stream of money with less risk which results in better development of the software (if it only were so but I'm sure that's what they're saying).

Oh, no doubt. I didn't mean to infer CC tanked... I just meant there is still a large demographic that didn't buy in. So they could make even more money if they'd offer perpetual (and FTR, Im not going by here... its a sentiment that's prevalent all over the web)

I'll be patient and just let it happen ( what else would i do anyways right? ). I love the product, i love the current team. I have an abyssal hate for their new "host" due to tons of negative experience with both their customer support and their products.

The only thing i am extremely disappointed about is that 80% of the answers are "not decided yet, unknown, undisclosed".

Its like you rent a house, but you dont even look at it in the first place. Is a bathroom included? Does it have heating?

I simply cannot trust Allegorithmic anymore when they say "we simply dont know yet, but we totally agree with adobe! We never openly talked about the potential partnership, but now its here! We want the best for our users, but we dont even know what we're allowed to do with our stuff anymore!" when it comes to some really meaningful questions from some users.

Furthermore, downplaying users critiques or angryness as "trolling" is probably the worst choice of words possible. The concerned users are trolls now. Almost sounds like Adobe themselves said this. Well technically they did. There might've been *something* that one could see as "trolling", but im pretty sure its just disappointment and concerns expressed in a different way.

Hello Vincent, at first thank you very much for your explanations, they are more than welcome!
All that questions and issues with licences, may they be perpetual or subscription, are imo discussed for the moment and will be further clarified the next weeks, I have no doubts.

But one significant question remains for me: Why Allegorithic has choosen Adobe? I simply can't believe, that your whole team didn't made bad experiences with Adobe the last 20 years?
80% of the customers here seem to be disappointed by Adobe's products and their way to make business - and your customers are not alone with this, nearly all colleagues I met in agencies and studios for many years now shared this negative emotions regarding Adobe.

So lack of innovation and ruthless, exploitative customer relationship are extreme negative conotations Adobe is associated with since a long time. I think that is the aspect making many people so upset and distressed. From many potential investors worldwide and in europe you have choosen exactly Adobe, as if you Allego-guys live in another world, as if your perception of this company is fundamental different to the public opinion?
Furthermore I know many guys in our business, who were enthusiastic and proud, that the best technology in these years comes from a european, a french company! And before you even reach your full potential, you sell this whole promising technology to a notorious shareholder-driven machinery in the United States?

Well, hard to comprehend and therefore so sad for many here. For me (and probably some others) these thoughts and emotions are NOT meant as accusation versus Allegorithmic, it's more like a inner disappointment, the sad feeling that something goes wrong with big business and the way, how people are utilized there.
Over the last years Allegorithmic has taken well-deserved the role of the 'good guys' in the hearts of many users and just this positive emotional involvement explains the full bandwith of reactions we all see right now. No one wants to see his good guys threatened by the evil empire without happyend - the rebels or (a more european imagination) the small village of Gauls, Astérix le Gaulois, they must never lose the game in the end. We all believe in that.     


Once again nothing at all has been decided. We noticed (and already knew) that perpetual license would be on top of the list of the concerns (even if ironically it's by far the least purchased option, but the fact that "it's possible" is key)

So as we don't do bullshit messages: nothing is decided yet, multiples options are being discussed, for you guys, for current Adobe customers, so there are good chances to see different options to fit the different needs. So wait and see on this one.

For someone that doesn't invest emotion in to these things and I am new here (5 day old subscription) I was looking forward to getting a perpetual license as I feel SPand SD has everything I need at this point in time. Maybe a bit naive given I am just learning. But if Adobe was to scrap them then please make sure they drop the price to make it affordable in the long run like they did with Photoshop. I am one of the few that don't mind the Pricing and Subscription model of Photoshop only. :) It helped me no end to start to earn and now with SP and SD I can grow that business.

Seeing the immense success that CC was and the amount of people subscribed, I'd say you're one of many not few. Photoshop is dirt cheap and Adobe should be given credit at least for that. It's their flagship product and they didn't have to create such an affordable sub for it.

Other than that I'm not a fan of CC at all, and wish there was a perpetual or even a rent-to-own option, but I do feel this is one aspect that needs to be recognized. Photoshop is more accessible today than ever.

Well said. Yeah I like the rent to own option

If Adobe could understand the vast percentages they have lost in $$ from that, they might change their tune (tho I wouldnt hold my breath lol)

Sadly, this is not the case. CC has been an immense success story for them. The numbers just do not support this. They haven't lost anything, they have gained. I don't doubt that is exactly what Adobe told to Allegorithmic as well. Don't believe the shitstorm, here are the actual numbers that clearly show the vast majority of people are all over CC. And then of course you can add on top of that other positive (from Adobe's point of view) aspects of CC, like a more controlled and steady stream of money with less risk which results in better development of the software (if it only were so but I'm sure that's what they're saying).

Oh, no doubt. I didn't mean to infer CC tanked... I just meant there is still a large demographic that didn't buy in. So they could make even more money if they'd offer perpetual (and FTR, Im not going by here... its a sentiment that's prevalent all over the web)

Yeah, I do wonder how large that demographic actually is in the grand scheme of things. Is it maybe just the dreaded vocal minority? I'd hate that, but it's a definite possibility.

In the same way that no workman would rent his work hammer to work, digital artists should not accept the rental model in its current form. Software as a service is a the new talk of the town on how to milk consumers for cash. In the long run it will not work once every company is only selling rental software services and people realize that the collective they have to pay per month will outpace the pre-paid software licenses they used to own.

This is just not a correct comparison. Software isn't a physical object you buy. You never own the software, you buy a license to use it. Perpetual just gives you a license that is valid forever. At least in theory, at some point you might need an update so the software still works on your new system. The continuous part of software has always been there. You bought updates, you extended maintenance. All words for development over time, making the software better and hopefully cater to user input. That really is a service of sorts.

A screwdriver doesn't get updates. It doesn't need to be continuously developed. No features are added over time. It may very well break down at some point, then you have to buy a new one. Also there are definitely cases where even physical objects are rented out. Some expensive machinery, a Red camera that you only need for a short time during production etc.


Furthermore, downplaying users critiques or angryness as "trolling" is probably the worst choice of words possible. The concerned users are trolls now. Almost sounds like Adobe themselves said this. Well technically they did. There might've been *something* that one could see as "trolling", but im pretty sure its just disappointment and concerns expressed in a different way.
Don't take half of my words please: 'most of the posts are legit concerns, expressed in good or bad manners, then we have insults, then we have some conspiracy theories, then we have people trying to tell people to calm down, etc'

'I think we can pursue the discussion in a more constructive/efficient manner, with the same arguments/skepticism/feeling, but without the conspiracy theories, insults, and obvious trolling.'

I clearly said that the concerns was legit.

A lot has been said by many (including me) about this merger, however, here is another take at this whole scenario from a different point of view. I am genuinely concerned about Allegorithmic developers/people here.

I have been part of the corporate culture for 10+ years and i have seen a lot of mergers like these, some at much larger scale by corporate/captive giants(i wish not to mention their names).

One thing that i found common among all these mergers?

a) Hire everyone from the third company

b) knowledge transfer while pretending that the knowledge is being transferred to increase the workforce, which is then followed by massive layoff of all the employees (only select few SME's stay) hired from the said third company. This is mainly done to show profit on the books. (experienced Dev's ask more than new hires)

c) CEO's are made, IT road maps are laid out for next 5-7 years, in which time the said CEO leaves the company and another one takes over.

The first year after the merger, people who were involved in knowledge transfer remember the people who transferred their knowledge, and second year on-wards, all is forgotten.

I pray you guys never have to see such a day.

Hello Vincent, at first thank you very much for your explanations, they are more than welcome!
All that questions and issues with licences, may they be perpetual or subscription, are imo discussed for the moment and will be further clarified the next weeks, I have no doubts.

But one significant question remains for me: Why Allegorithic has choosen Adobe? I simply can't believe, that your whole team didn't made bad experiences with Adobe the last 20 years?
80% of the customers here seem to be disappointed by Adobe's products and their way to make business - and your customers are not alone with this, nearly all colleagues I met in agencies and studios for many years now shared this negative emotions regarding Adobe.

So lack of innovation and ruthless, exploitative customer relationship are extreme negative conotations Adobe is associated with since a long time. I think that is the aspect making many people so upset and distressed. From many potential investors worldwide and in europe you have choosen exactly Adobe, as if you Allego-guys live in another world, as if your perception of this company is fundamental different to the public opinion?
Furthermore I know many guys in our business, who were enthusiastic and proud, that the best technology in these years comes from a european, a french company! And before you even reach your full potential, you sell this whole promising technology to a notorious shareholder-driven machinery in the United States?

Well, hard to comprehend and therefore so sad for many here. For me (and probably some others) these thoughts and emotions are NOT meant as accusation versus Allegorithmic, it's more like a inner disappointment, the sad feeling that something goes wrong with big business and the way, how people are utilized there.
Over the last years Allegorithmic has taken well-deserved the role of the 'good guys' in the hearts of many users and just this positive emotional involvement explains the full bandwith of reactions we all see right now. No one wants to see his good guys threatened by the evil empire without happyend - the rebels or (a more european imagination) the small village of Gauls, Astérix le Gaulois, they must never lose the game in the end. We all believe in that.   


We have chosen Adobe, because indeed we know them from inside for quite a while. if you liked the decision we took that last 2 years, so did Adobe . We wouldn't have taken this decision without previously get some guarantee of where we want to go.

3D is a new territory for Adobe as well, and they (we) will have to adapt to their new audience as well for sure.

Once again thanks for loving what we were as Allegorithmic: we'll make sure that you still love us as a team from Adobe.

A lot has been said by many (including me) about this merger, however, here is another take at this whole scenario from a different point of view. I am genuinely concerned about Allegorithmic developers/people here.

I have been part of the corporate culture for 10+ years and i have seen a lot of mergers like these, some at much larger scale by corporate/captive giants(i wish not to mention their names).

One thing that i found common among all these mergers?

a) Hire everyone from the third company

b) knowledge transfer while pretending that the knowledge is being transferred to increase the workforce, which is then followed by massive layoff of all the employees (only select few SME's stay) hired from the said third company. This is mainly done to show profit on the books. (experienced Dev's ask more than new hires)

c) CEO's are made, IT road maps are laid out for next 5-7 years, in which time the said CEO leaves the company and another one takes over.

The first year after the merger, people who were involved in knowledge transfer remember the people who transferred their knowledge, and second year on-wards, all is forgotten.

I pray you guys never have to see such a day.

Hey, I replied to you privately ;)

We will all just have to wait and see what happens. At the end of the day I'm sure everyone here including myself will manage. I don't intend on dumping Allegorithmic's products unless some very unattractive changes happening, both with design and pricing. Even though we rely on such tools, as artists we can always find alternatives if need be as we've all done in the past at some point.

As far as "conspiracy theories" goes, well... we can review those claims within a few years. We've already seen this song and dance in the past so I wouldn't mark possibilities as "conspiracy theories" when referencing historical events that have happened through Adobe acquisitions. These are very valid concerns and shouldn't be discounted. If nobody cared what would happen to Allegoritmic and it's products we wouldn't even be posting. Yes, some people took it a bit too far with death threats, and such... I personally had a good laugh over Adobe Dimension, and also voiced my thoughts on Adobe so if people consider that trolling, well... then so be it, that's their opinion.
I teach people how to use Substance Painter. :)