Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 45221 times)

Hey everyone! for people who don't know me, I'm Vincent, tech artist & community manager at Allegorithmic/Adobe.

Before to jump into explanations, this thread is meant to follow this one (that I am going to lock to pursue the conversation here): https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,27494.0.html

Part 1 will remain public: it is a great testimony/snapshot of the passion and complexity of our community, that we can use internally to support/push some ideas.

So why I'm doing this?

By making this new announcement, we knew that the reactions would be strong and passionate, and honestly, we are not surprised (even if of course it's tough to read, especially, when it comes from a community you have been taking care for years, but I'll come to this later on). So yes it was heartbreaking but expected.

One of the consequences, is that part 1 of this thread has become so noisy, that it's unreadable: most of the posts are legit concerns, expressed in good or bad manners, then we have insults, then we have some conspiracy theories, then we have people trying to tell people to calm down, etc...

But now that the shock of the announcement is behind us, I think we can pursue the discussion in a more constructive/efficient manner, with the same arguments/skepticism/feeling, but without the conspiracy theories, insults, and obvious trolling. this is not representative of the community I have been talking to the last 4 years.


You can read the 50+ pages of part 1, but I'll try to extract/summarize some of the main concerns/reactions that have been expressed:

  • "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
  • "You betrayed us by going with Adobe"
  • "You guys took the wrong decision"
  • "Adobe just buy to destroy a competitor. They destroy everything thay touch"
  • "Now I'll pay 4 times more to get access to your product"
  • "you guys are naive if you think you will be able to change Adobe/impose your ideas/preserve you identity"
  • "You guys are using "for now", on many topics, so we are doomed,"
  • "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
  • "You guys will drop Linux support"
  • "You guys had a great support, and it will become shitty"
  • "You guys will lose all the innovation your demonstrated in the past"
  • "Substance Painter and/or Substance Designer will disappear"
  • "You will not listen to us anymore"
  • "What about the free licenses for students and teachers?"

If I forget an important topic: just ping me and I'll add it to the list.

Now we are going to answer this questions/concerns when possible. But please, accept that we don't have all the answers, as many things need to be defined. And don't speculate like crazy: it's useless, and most of the scennarii have been made on part 1.

You can remain skepticals, it's totally fair, and it will our goal to reassure you on many topics, but for  many of them it will be with facts and not with words.

On a personal point of view, please remind that you guys are talking to (the same) people: regardless of what you think, tell it the proper way. We have always remained really close to our community (and this will be the case in the future), at a distance where you can be hugged, but also be slapped in the face: at this distance, anything that we do or tell is affecting people. So let's remain close and talk the way we are used to.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:29:33 pm

Hey everyone! for people who don't know me, I'm Vincent, tech artist & community manager at Allegorithmic/Adobe.

Before to jump into explanations, this thread is meant to follow this one (that I am going to lock to pursue the conversation here): https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,27494.0.html

Part 1 will remain public: it is a great testimony/snapshot of the passion and complexity of our community, that we can use internally to support/push some ideas.

So why I'm doing this?

By making this new announcement, we knew that the reactions would be strong and passionate, and honestly, we are not surprised (even if of course it's tough to read, especially, when it comes from a community you have been taking care for years, but I'll come to this later on). So yes it was heartbreaking but expected.

One of the consequences, is that part 1 of this thread has become so noisy, that it's unreadable: most of the posts are legit concerns, expressed in good or bad manners, then we have insults, then we have some conspiracy theories, then we have people trying to tell people to calm down, etc...

But now that the shock of the announcement is behind us, I think we can pursue the discussion in a more constructive/efficient manner, with the same arguments/skepticism/feeling, but without the conspiracy theories, insults, and obvious trolling. this is not representative of the community I have been talking to the last 4 years.


You can read the 50+ pages of part 1, but I'll try to extract/summarize some of the main concerns/reactions that have been expressed:

  • "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
  • "You betrayed us by going with Adobe"
  • "You guys took the wrong decision"
  • "Adobe just buy to destroy a competitor. They destroy everything thay touch"
  • "Now I'll pay 4 times more to get access to your product"
  • "you guys are naive if you think you will be able to change Adobe/impose your ideas/preserve you identity"
  • "You guys are using "for now", on many topics, so we are doomed,"
  • "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
  • "You guys will drop Linux support"
  • "You guys had a great support, and it will become shitty"
  • "You guys will lose all the innovation your demonstrated in the past"
  • "Substance Painter and/or Substance Designer will disappear"
  • "You will not listen to us anymore"

If I forget an important topic: just ping me and I'll add it to the list.

Now we are going to answer this questions/concerns when possible. But please, accept that we don't have all the answers, as many things need to be defined. And don't speculate like crazy: it's useless, and most of the scennarii have been made on part 1.

You can remain skepticals, it's totally fair, and it will our goal to reassure you on many topics, but for  many of them it will be with facts and not with words.

On a personal point of view, please remind that you guys are talking to (the same) people: regardless of what you think, tell it the proper way. We have always remained really close to our community (and this will be the case in the future), at a distance where you can be hugged, but also be slapped in the face: at this distance, anything that we do or tell is affecting people. So let's remain close and talk the way we are used to.


wow, your summary of things... so patronizing..clearly shows your lack of respect for the people who were the wind under your wings

So an easy one: "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
If it was the reason then we would have been really stupid  ;D

Allegorithmic would have gained (a lot more) value just by waiting 1 or 2 years.
+ we have received a lot of offers in 2018 (investment funds, other companies): we just chose it because of it the best option regarding of the goals we want to achieve.

So cash was low in the list, regarding the decision to join Adobe (sorry I have to go: my private jet is waiting for me to go to Ibiza)

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
Edit: if you have a perpetual license, you will keep it, it's your. For the future hypothetical offers (will we still offer it?) this is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.


Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 05:41:58 pm

thanks for your summary, Vincent. I agree, that the emotional response of the community is a good thing, and it´s just natural, that there is a bit of insults and trolling in the mix.

Allegorithmic really showed the industry how to re-think software, workflows, interaction with the community, pricing - simply put: Allegorithmic was leading the way during the last years.

At the same time, we all know, that companies like Autodesk or Adobe have lost touch with the industry and more importantly: with the artists. They are abusing their monopoly position to everyone´s disadvantage. Have you ever tried to assign a hotkey to a brush in photoshop? Or how is it possible, that 3dsMax still doesn´t allow to have the UV editor open while editing geometry?

And I think this is the real reason for so many Allegorithmic users being so upset: Because Allegorithmic exposed this weakness in the most elegant way: Be the change you want to see in the world!

In last years Allegorithmic´s survey, I wrote: Buy Adobe and kick some asses. Well, it didn´t work out that way, unfortunately, but I still hope, that Allegorithmic wll make a dent in the way Adobe does things, because there is so much to improve...
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 12:52:25 pm

Have you ever tried to assign a hotkey to a brush in photoshop?

Have you tried in SD ;D?

More seriously, thanks for the feedback, and I am pretty confident that this transition "clash" has been noticed: We (Adobe) will be have to acknowledge, that there are many things they (now we) can improve with the Games and VFX industries that is the core of Allegorithmic historic community. It will be useful.

:) I really like ZBrush´s way of assigning hotkeys: ctrl+alt click a button, assign, done.

pws


Nothing has to be casted in stone forever. Adobe has seen the reaction of your user base. Why not swap over to your current Allegorithmic license system? Perpetual licenses plus maintenance gives everbody more confidence.
(... I have still my CS 6Ex, waiting for a perpetual upgrade, wanna some money Adobe, eh? ...)

Ok, we have to accept your decision. And vice versa. How about a poll how the A-license system should look like in the near future?

Cheers,

Peter

Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 01:36:16 pm

"You took the wrong decision"
"No we didn't"
"yes you did"
"No" "Yes" etc... This is a summary of an easy trolling topic.

So what we can do is expose is our point of view, and we can agree to disagree on this.

What we see is the 3D industry booming in the upcoming years, and we want to be ready when it happens and bring our ideas/solutions to the table. And reviewing the options/discussing with potential partners, we chose Adobe, because that gave us the trust and the keys to build our vision. We have been in touch with them for the last 2 years, so we are confident with the relationship we can build with them.
Once again we can agree to not agree, but this neither an aggressive takeover, nor a naive decision.


Nothing has to be casted in stone forever. Adobe has seen the reaction of your user base. Why not swap over to your current Allegorithmic license system? Perpetual licenses plus maintenance gives everbody more confidence.
(... I have still my CS 6Ex, waiting for a perpetual upgrade, wanna some money Adobe, eh? ...)

Ok, we have to accept your decision. And vice versa. How about a poll how the A-license system should look like in the near future?

Cheers,

Peter

Once again nothing at all has been decided. We noticed (and already knew) that perpetual license would be on top of the list of the concerns (even if ironically it's by far the least purchased option, but the fact that "it's possible" is key)

So as we don't do bullshit messages: nothing is decided yet, multiples options are being discussed, for you guys, for current Adobe customers, so there are good chances to see different options to fit the different needs. So wait and see on this one.

pws


Nothing has to be casted in stone forever. Adobe has seen the reaction of your user base. Why not swap over to your current Allegorithmic license system? Perpetual licenses plus maintenance gives everbody more confidence.
(... I have still my CS 6Ex, waiting for a perpetual upgrade, wanna some money Adobe, eh? ...)

Ok, we have to accept your decision. And vice versa. How about a poll how the A-license system should look like in the near future?

Cheers,

Peter

Once again nothing at all has been decided. We noticed (and already knew) that perpetual license would be on top of the list of the concerns (even if ironically it's by far the least purchased option, but the fact that "it's possible" is key)

So as we don't do bullshit messages: nothing is decided yet, multiples options are being discussed, for you guys, for current Adobe customers, so there are good chances to see different options to fit the different needs. So wait and see on this one.

I meant this in a constructive, positive way, no sarcasm applied Vincent. It is Sunday, opening a bottle from André Drappier might help to enjoy life....
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 01:50:41 pm

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
This is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

I am considering to subscribe for 12 months (with monthly payment) with the goal to convert it to a perpetual license next year, in January 2020. Questions:
1) If I start this 12 months subscription now, can I still convert to a perpetual license next year with the $49 extra payment? If the answer is yes, is that 100% certain?
2) There is a mixed information whether or not perpetual will be valid in the future. Vincent Gault says above "we don't have visibility yet", however another staff member said on the previous (now locked discussion) that perpetual license will be valid. His answer is there, please look it up. This is contradicting info, which info is correct?
3) Can Substance Painter be activated offline via a downloaded license file, or it is activated by contacting a central server? I am asking this because my fear is that even if I convert to perpetual next year, I need to have the confidence that I can use the app even if Adobe shuts down the server etc. I assume they would not, but better to prepare for all eventualities.

Thanks!

As a side note:
you really need to understand artist's reaction. Imagine if the only way to use a Nikon camera is via rental. Most young artists cannot even get onto the property ladder anymore and Adobe's subscription attitude IS part of this worldwide problem. It needs to be stopped. I understand that software developers need to constantly earn money, but how come Nikon can survive by selling, and not renting cameras?

  • "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
  • "You betrayed us by going with Adobe"
  • "You guys took the wrong decision"
  • "Adobe just buy to destroy a competitor. They destroy everything thay touch"
  • "Now I'll pay 4 times more to get access to your product"
  • "you guys are naive if you think you will be able to change Adobe/impose your ideas/preserve you identity"
  • "You guys are using "for now", on many topics, so we are doomed,"
  • "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
  • "You guys will drop Linux support"
  • "You guys had a great support, and it will become shitty"
  • "You guys will lose all the innovation your demonstrated in the past"
  • "Substance Painter and/or Substance Designer will disappear"
  • "You will not listen to us anymore"
Now we are going to answer this questions/concerns when possible. But please, accept that we don't have all the answers, as many things need to be defined.
So, none of that was "defined" before a deal was made? I'm starting to think you guys really don't care about your users. I don't own "PAY to Play" anything "Adobe", not planning on it in the future either. Never have liked the idea of anything that is "PAY to Play". I like to own or at least think I own the software I'm using. I will continue to use my "perpetual" license as long as "Adobe" allows me. Then I'll be switching to something else.

Please don't be too shocked by the reception of this news. Many of us are gamers and we have seen this happen many times before.

Activision merged with Blizzard and they recently drove the company into the grave. I mean it's still there but as a former shell of itself and after Diablo Immortal everyone knows that the franchises we love are going in some very bad directions. The CEO leaving, MASSIVE layoffs, MASSIVE change in corporate culture, meaning the replacement of investing time and money into products with low effort for high profit. Sure they were making money, but not as much as Activision wanted them.

BioWare used to make deep RPGs with interesting gameplay and characters. Then they got bought by EA and while we had some excellent products like Dragon Age, ME1 and 2 in the long run it's obvious the deal was bad for them. Sure, the new games are more polished but with less substance (pun intended) And don't forget about all the other studios ruined by EA.

As soon as these studios no longer produce as much money as their corporate overlords want them to they are restructured and quality is replaced by low effort for high profit because people know they are going to buy their stuff just because of brand recognition and marketing.

Us gamers have seen this happen many many times before and we simply don't have the patience for this anymore. Maybe you becoming part of Adobe will be good, even excellent, in the short term (1, maybe two years) but how do we know this is going to be good in the long term, especially considering the fact that we intend to use these programs for years to come? How do we know they won't force you to simplify the programs so they can cater to the casual market if you are not making as much money as they want? They might not force you to do this this year, maybe not even the next, but what guarantee do we have that they won't? This isn't just a video game to us, this is a long-term investment.

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
This is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

Come on man, why did you accept the deal before knowing exactly what is going to happen? We know YOU have good intentions but so far Adobe has not given us reasons to stay calm.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 02:18:56 pm

Hey Vincent, thanks for your summary.
I have a few questions.

  • What will happen to Substance Source / Substance Share?
  • What will happen to Steam version?

I'm currently working in AAA game company, so I guess we will buy whatever you guys throw at us. Because all of your products are part of our graphic art and rendering pipeline.
But I have planned to buy pepretual Indie license for my personal project. So is it good time to buy it, or I should wait, until the things are clear? You guys should do at least one sale, before switching to Adobe CC or whatever it will be.
And I hope there will be enough time to purchase things before the switching to Adobe licensing model.

I really appreciate your hard work and dedication guys. But please, stay determined and keep doing things in your own special way.
And sorry about my English ;)
Thank you.