Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 70301 times)

Dear Allegorithmic,

People switched away from Adobe to Substance for 2 major reasons. One was they needed better tools for their pipeline. Another was to get away from Adobe's abysmal pricing system and lack of 'personal ownership' by removing any sense of perpetual licensing they effectively stated they removed the model from their concept as a software publisher, its a non argument to their corporate side that they will not use perpetual licensing because it does not allow them to have the power in their relationship with users.

Allegorithmic on the other hand was making huge waves with their licensing model. Not only were the tools better, the license meant that if you chose to, you could hold back for a while with a stable version, and come back another year if you wanted to. If you had financial issues you could HOLD ON TO your copy , not pay a while, and come back when you were in better shape. This was hailed as practically revolutionary for a company to do this. I only know of one company that's ever done better, and that was Pixologic. And to be honest after 10 years of ownership and Free upgrades, I would gladly buy another copy for $800 again if it lasted just as long and got the same treatment as before.

Since it is quite likely though not 100% confirmed, my question is this:

Can someone from Allegorithmic please explain how an entirely subscription based licensing system is fair to the consumers, represents Allegorithmic's core beliefs, and not anti-consumer as it is often represented?

I think that's about how I worded it before...

Also thank you Vincent for fielding questions in this new thread.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 03:59:18 pm

Hello Vincent. Nice to meet you.

Like others, I have my doubts about Adobe's intentions in acquiring Allegorithmic. However, to lock in my ability to convert to a perpetual license, I signed up for the Indie License subscription when I heard the news. (My original plan was to wait a few more months, until I was actually creating things I needed to texture.)

Anyway, after years of editing other people's writing, I couldn't help but notice this sentence isn't quite right:

  • "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"

I believe you meant to say: "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses subscription-only licensing."

I wish only the best for you guys. Prove us all wrong. Please.  :)

-Anita
 aka L'Adair

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
This is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

2 days ago in the first thread your answer was a clear: "no, you will not lose your perpetual license" and also: "Yes, you still will be able to upgrade into perpetual license if you have an ongoing 12 month constant subscription right now"

And after 2 days it turns out that you do not have visibility due to this question? - It will not calm dawn the community I'm afraid.

Please, try to short it out as fast as posible. Please understand, that it's not about that non of us can handle the
financial loss, but psichologicaly it's a huge burden, that will block an ongoing constructive conversation about the future, about this change.

And please allow me immediately a question based on this subject:
- how you see, the future due to upcoming competition? Probablly a lot of comanies will try to grab the opportunity to develop a texturing system as you have. Why it's an opportunity? Becouse few days ago you were the lonely wolf rockstars of 3D DCCs, no one really wanted to go versus Substance, since the 3d content creator community would immediately digg a grave for him... But now! Now they would go versus Adobe and with that they will be able to even roleplay the wight-knights of 3d texturing community.
- Do you know how far Mudbox is from substance painter due to texturing for example? And do you know how much it cost right now? (of course it's not the right comparison, since Mudbox is an organic sculpting DCC tool in the first place)
- Do you know how far Houdini is from substance designer with their "COP" system? Do you know how much Houdini Indi cost? Houdini Indi! The most complex, most profesional 3D indi DCC tool in the market.
And probablly there are a lot who are lurking now in the shadows and will jump in the right moment.
- Can you imagine that if you add Alchemy to our existing substance bundle, and maybe lower the prices a bit for the new incomers, will it be able to keep the competition with the upcoming "siege tools" that will defenately be released by these giants?


Sorry for the misunderstanding: I was talking the evolution of the business model: existing perpetual licenses will remain (I will edit).

Competition: we had competition in the past, and we'll have in the future. The only answer is making great products, continue to innovate, and offering great support. We did it in the past, and there is no reason to stop it. Being with Adobe, we have to tackle a new challenge that have been illustrated by a lot of gifs/memes: many of the existing or the new actors will play the role of the rebel versus the Empire. This will be one of our challenges.

- I don't get you point with Mudbox and/or Houdini: as competitors? We are looking at everyone honestly :)

- Not sure what you mean with the last question: Substance alchemist? it's will come with the Substance offer when ready if it's your question.



You have to admit that we are perplexed when you talk about adobe in terms of an innovative company.
The rate of really useful novelty, in the main graphic software (ps, ae, ai) is really deplorable.
I'm a CS6 user, some of my coworker use CC, so I also use it sometimes, and I can really say that the only real "innovation" that made me want to update was the redesign of the brushes in photoshop 2018.
But we can't really talk about innovation since the brush system, hadn't been updated for more than ten years
And even small free or very cheap software (krita (free), paintstorm (excellent 20$), verve (free), or also allegorithmic :) have already gone much further.

And I still don't forget pixelbender that they threw it in the trash without any scruples.

Can you give us some examples of their innovative side?
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:27:44 pm

Dear Allegorithmic,

Since it is quite likely though not 100% confirmed, my question is this:

Can someone from Allegorithmic please explain how an entirely subscription based licensing system is fair to the consumers, represents Allegorithmic's core beliefs, and not anti-consumer as it is often represented?

I think that's about how I worded it before...

Also thank you Vincent for fielding questions in this new thread.

First and once again, wait and see.

Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imho (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair.

BUT having the option to buy, even if not used, is important. And I would say, the ability to 'read' already pre-made work as well.

This is a personal answer and reflexion

You have to admit that we are perplexed when you talk about adobe in terms of an innovative company.
The rate of really useful novelty, in the main graphic software (ps, ae, ai) is really deplorable.
I'm a CS6 user, some of my coworker use CC, so I also use it sometimes, and I can really say that the only real "innovation" that made me want to update was the redesign of the brushes in photoshop 2018.
But we can't really talk about innovation since the brush system, hadn't been updated for more than ten years
And even small free or very cheap software (krita (free), paintstorm (excellent 20$), verve (free), or also allegorithmic :) have already gone much further.

And I still don't forget pixelbender that they threw it in the trash without any scruples.

Can you give me some examples of their innovative side?

No and I won't even try to search. I (and you) am more interested in what WE (the new 3D team) at Adobe, will do.
And please, if we don't deliver, tell us.

Thanks for the update Vincent.

I work in the Industrial Design sector, not games and to be honest I'm not a die-hard user of either SD or SP, but I have purchased 6 or so instances of monthly 'Indie' usage - so I think It's fair that I make my voice heard.

When the news was first announced, it was shock and surprise, then these 3 questions quickly formed in my mind...

1. Will SP/SD be dumbed down in some way ?
2. Will Substance Source still be around in one form or another ?
3. Will the pricing of a 'monthly' indie license be comparable to what it is now?

It seems like you have answered these questions in previous posts, so I am quite happy and hope everyone's future with Adobe will be bright.

Keep up the good work and don't forget the little people...

Jon


Thanks for the update Vincent.

I work in the Industrial Design sector, not games and to be honest I'm not a die-hard user of either SD or SP, but I have purchased 6 or so instances of monthly 'Indie' usage - so I think It's fair that I make my voice heard.

When the news was first announced, it was shock and surprise, then these 3 questions quickly formed in my mind...

1. Will SP/SD be dumbed down in some way ?
2. Will Substance Source still be around in one form or another ?
3. Will the pricing of a 'monthly' indie license be comparable to what it is now?

It seems like you have answered these questions in previous posts, so I am quite happy and hope everyone's future with Adobe will be bright.

Keep up the good work and don't forget the little people...

Jon

Hey Jon
1: not at all
2: definitely
3: no defined answer yet , but we have no reason to make it more expensive if it's your concern.

Cheers

You have to admit that we are perplexed when you talk about adobe in terms of an innovative company.
The rate of really useful novelty, in the main graphic software (ps, ae, ai) is really deplorable.
I'm a CS6 user, some of my coworker use CC, so I also use it sometimes, and I can really say that the only real "innovation" that made me want to update was the redesign of the brushes in photoshop 2018.
But we can't really talk about innovation since the brush system, hadn't been updated for more than ten years
And even small free or very cheap software (krita (free), paintstorm (excellent 20$), verve (free), or also allegorithmic :) have already gone much further.

And I still don't forget pixelbender that they threw it in the trash without any scruples.

Can you give me some examples of their innovative side?

No and I won't even try to search. I (and you) am more interested in what WE (the new 3D team) at Adobe, will do.
And please, if we don't deliver, tell us.


This answer leads to a question.

Will you continue to have a dedicated forum, to which YOU (the former allegorithmic team) will answer ?

because I'm going to try to stay constructive and not talk about adobe product support.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:40:29 pm

You have to admit that we are perplexed when you talk about adobe in terms of an innovative company.
The rate of really useful novelty, in the main graphic software (ps, ae, ai) is really deplorable.
I'm a CS6 user, some of my coworker use CC, so I also use it sometimes, and I can really say that the only real "innovation" that made me want to update was the redesign of the brushes in photoshop 2018.
But we can't really talk about innovation since the brush system, hadn't been updated for more than ten years
And even small free or very cheap software (krita (free), paintstorm (excellent 20$), verve (free), or also allegorithmic :) have already gone much further.

And I still don't forget pixelbender that they threw it in the trash without any scruples.

Can you give me some examples of their innovative side?

No and I won't even try to search. I (and you) am more interested in what WE (the new 3D team) at Adobe, will do.
And please, if we don't deliver, tell us.


This answer leads to a question.

Will you continue to have a dedicated forum, to which YOU (the former allegorithmic team) will answer ?

because I'm going to try to stay constructive and not talk about adobe product support.

YES: same team behind the answers :). If the forum migrates (which is not in the plans for now), it will remain the same team as well.
Hope it helps.

Dear Allegorithmic,

Since it is quite likely though not 100% confirmed, my question is this:

Can someone from Allegorithmic please explain how an entirely subscription based licensing system is fair to the consumers, represents Allegorithmic's core beliefs, and not anti-consumer as it is often represented?

I think that's about how I worded it before...

Also thank you Vincent for fielding questions in this new thread.

First and once again, wait and see.

Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imho (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair.

BUT having the option to buy, even if not used, is important. And I would say, the ability to 'read' already pre-made work as well.

This is a personal answer and reflexion

Thank you for the speedy reply Vincent.

I'm glad we can agree, the OPTION of being able to own software is actually quite important.
I think we may disagree on rent however.

Well in a way, that's actually a good example... of what isn't fair for most people.

Depending on where you live, Rent is abysmal, but if you can not afford a house, what do you do? You rent, and if you can, you rent as low as you can to save as much as you can, but thats often not enough , even if it means you no longer have money to save for a house. So in the long run, the money you would have had for a house, but was too little at the time to even put on a down payment, is gone, lost to rent, because you own nothing at the end of a rent cycle.

Adobe and Autodesk are the worst rent management companies that we know of in our industry in that example. Their bottom line is to basically push as hard as they can even if it means pushing out people who are more on the edge of being able to not afford their software, if it means their more corporate lock-ins will pay more and overcompensate for the loss.

I think this will kill off a lot of the base that helped bring up Substance into the mainstream. A lot of software is perpetuated through the users showing off to their art friends and their managers to help get things rolling, and I think this is going to hurt a lot of people who were a part of that spread.  Sure some people make more than others, and are well off, or their companies cover their license costs, but many do not.

I hope that's been made pretty clear by most people's concerns. I know some of it has gotten out of hand, but, you're dealing with an entire industry of basicly abused renters. A lot of veterans who have seen this pattern time and time again.

Thank you again for the response. I appreciate the time you're taking going through all of these, I know you end up repeating yourself, or are limited on what you can and can not say due to legal issues and just, not having that part of the deal worked out.

Hey everyone! for people who don't know me, I'm Vincent, tech artist & community manager at Allegorithmic/Adobe.

Before to jump into explanations, this thread is meant to follow this one (that I am going to lock to pursue the conversation here): https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,27494.0.html

Part 1 will remain public: it is a great testimony/snapshot of the passion and complexity of our community, that we can use internally to support/push some ideas.

So why I'm doing this?

By making this new announcement, we knew that the reactions would be strong and passionate, and honestly, we are not surprised (even if of course it's tough to read, especially, when it comes from a community you have been taking care for years, but I'll come to this later on). So yes it was heartbreaking but expected.

One of the consequences, is that part 1 of this thread has become so noisy, that it's unreadable: most of the posts are legit concerns, expressed in good or bad manners, then we have insults, then we have some conspiracy theories, then we have people trying to tell people to calm down, etc...

But now that the shock of the announcement is behind us, I think we can pursue the discussion in a more constructive/efficient manner, with the same arguments/skepticism/feeling, but without the conspiracy theories, insults, and obvious trolling. this is not representative of the community I have been talking to the last 4 years.


You can read the 50+ pages of part 1, but I'll try to extract/summarize some of the main concerns/reactions that have been expressed:

  • "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
  • "You betrayed us by going with Adobe"
  • "You guys took the wrong decision"
  • "Adobe just buy to destroy a competitor. They destroy everything thay touch"
  • "Now I'll pay 4 times more to get access to your product"
  • "you guys are naive if you think you will be able to change Adobe/impose your ideas/preserve you identity"
  • "You guys are using "for now", on many topics, so we are doomed,"
  • "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
  • "You guys will drop Linux support"
  • "You guys had a great support, and it will become shitty"
  • "You guys will lose all the innovation your demonstrated in the past"
  • "Substance Painter and/or Substance Designer will disappear"
  • "You will not listen to us anymore"
  • "What about the free licenses for students and teachers?"

If I forget an important topic: just ping me and I'll add it to the list.

Now we are going to answer this questions/concerns when possible. But please, accept that we don't have all the answers, as many things need to be defined. And don't speculate like crazy: it's useless, and most of the scennarii have been made on part 1.

You can remain skepticals, it's totally fair, and it will our goal to reassure you on many topics, but for  many of them it will be with facts and not with words.

On a personal point of view, please remind that you guys are talking to (the same) people: regardless of what you think, tell it the proper way. We have always remained really close to our community (and this will be the case in the future), at a distance where you can be hugged, but also be slapped in the face: at this distance, anything that we do or tell is affecting people. So let's remain close and talk the way we are used to.


Just a simple question, are there any plans for a substance painter 2019 or 2020 version? Or is it going be re - package as a completely new software with a different UI ect. and some generic Adobe name like " Adobe Coater" ?

(btw you can't expect me to believe an answer like "you don't know yet" because what kind of person sells their company and not even bother to ask what will happen to their product)

Regarding renting, this actually depends on people usage.
It may seem strange for people on the forum as you are mainly « core users », but the Substance subscription is by far the offer which has the most of success (80% of our new users). The reason is that not everybody needs to use texturing tools on a daily basis, lots of users are using it « per project », and so are just paying for a few months, stop, come back later, etc.

My point is that there are different usage, and different needs. It’s all about the value you get in the offers.
That’s why we try to keep options, to answer users different needs.
Director of Product Management & COO

Hey Jon
1: not at all
2: definitely
3: no defined answer yet , but we have no reason to make it more expensive if it's your concern.

Cheers

Thanks for the reply Vincent.

While we seem to have your ear, there is another question that I have, although, admittedly it bears no relevance to the Adobe buy-out...

I have noticed that the 'Gallery' has disappeared in the last few days from the Allegorithmic website... Is it gone for good or will it make a return ?

Hey everyone! for people who don't know me, I'm Vincent, tech artist & community manager at Allegorithmic/Adobe.

Before to jump into explanations, this thread is meant to follow this one (that I am going to lock to pursue the conversation here): https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,27494.0.html

Part 1 will remain public: it is a great testimony/snapshot of the passion and complexity of our community, that we can use internally to support/push some ideas.

So why I'm doing this?

By making this new announcement, we knew that the reactions would be strong and passionate, and honestly, we are not surprised (even if of course it's tough to read, especially, when it comes from a community you have been taking care for years, but I'll come to this later on). So yes it was heartbreaking but expected.

One of the consequences, is that part 1 of this thread has become so noisy, that it's unreadable: most of the posts are legit concerns, expressed in good or bad manners, then we have insults, then we have some conspiracy theories, then we have people trying to tell people to calm down, etc...

But now that the shock of the announcement is behind us, I think we can pursue the discussion in a more constructive/efficient manner, with the same arguments/skepticism/feeling, but without the conspiracy theories, insults, and obvious trolling. this is not representative of the community I have been talking to the last 4 years.


You can read the 50+ pages of part 1, but I'll try to extract/summarize some of the main concerns/reactions that have been expressed:

  • "We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe does not use perpetual licenses"
  • "You betrayed us by going with Adobe"
  • "You guys took the wrong decision"
  • "Adobe just buy to destroy a competitor. They destroy everything thay touch"
  • "Now I'll pay 4 times more to get access to your product"
  • "you guys are naive if you think you will be able to change Adobe/impose your ideas/preserve you identity"
  • "You guys are using "for now", on many topics, so we are doomed,"
  • "You guys, sold your soul to the evil just for $$$"
  • "You guys will drop Linux support"
  • "You guys had a great support, and it will become shitty"
  • "You guys will lose all the innovation your demonstrated in the past"
  • "Substance Painter and/or Substance Designer will disappear"
  • "You will not listen to us anymore"
  • "What about the free licenses for students and teachers?"

If I forget an important topic: just ping me and I'll add it to the list.

Now we are going to answer this questions/concerns when possible. But please, accept that we don't have all the answers, as many things need to be defined. And don't speculate like crazy: it's useless, and most of the scennarii have been made on part 1.

You can remain skepticals, it's totally fair, and it will our goal to reassure you on many topics, but for  many of them it will be with facts and not with words.

On a personal point of view, please remind that you guys are talking to (the same) people: regardless of what you think, tell it the proper way. We have always remained really close to our community (and this will be the case in the future), at a distance where you can be hugged, but also be slapped in the face: at this distance, anything that we do or tell is affecting people. So let's remain close and talk the way we are used to.


Just a simple question, are there any plans for a substance painter 2019 or 2020 version? Or is it going be re - package as a completely new software with a different UI ect. and some generic Adobe name like " Adobe Coater" ?

(btw you can't expect me to believe an answer like "you don't know yet" because what kind of person sells their company and not even bother to ask what will happen to their product)

We are still developping the tools, and you can expext to learn more about the 2019.1 versions of Painter/Designer at the end of Q1, as we usually do :)
Director of Product Management & COO