Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)

[splinefx]

We have never commented on potential sales beforehand in the past and we likely won't in the future either.

Sorry for making a confusion. I understand that. My question was not about a sale, I just wanted to know: will I still be able to purchase a perpetual license on Steam any time at least before this year ends (while current version of Substance is relevant)? Do I have time to think before bying it? That's all.

[Jeremie Noguer]

You have plenty of time to think then

[3dcoatogo]

To summarize two threads - Allegorithmic is Adobe's bitch now   

See you in 5 years as a slow-crawling semi-dead piece of software with developers who moved to other companies.

[OldFlak]

To summarize two threads - Allegorithmic is Adobe's bitch now   

See you in 5 years as a slow-crawling semi-dead piece of software with developers who moved to other companies.

LOL they won't reply to that.... Anyhow it is all too late now - they have already sold us out - so nothing can be done about it now.

Surprising what humans will do for money - I know it has been said that it is not about money - but it always is.

This is easily the saddest thing that has happened in the game art industry for quite some time now. But I bet all the other 3D painter tool companies are dancing right now, not every day competing software just throws the towel in and hands the lead back to you.

I wonder if Allegorithmic understand just how much of a dirty word they are in the 3D Art industry right now.

I use Photoshop every day, and while I like it a great deal, it is easily the clunkiest UI to work with out of all my game art dev tools, I can't imagine how they can contribute to such a fantastic tool as Substance Painter.

What may help to lessen the feeling of complete abandonment and lack of loyalty to customers who supported Allegorithmic since its inception, would be some kind of explanation as to:

1) what a company like Adobe who has pratically no presence in the 3D market could possibly bring to the table to improve an already industry standard tool.

2) And likewise what Allegorithmic feels that a company with inferior tools to its own feel they can learn from them.

[Vincent Gault]

To summarize two threads - Allegorithmic is Adobe's bitch now   

See you in 5 years as a slow-crawling semi-dead piece of software with developers who moved to other companies.

LOL they won't reply to that.... Anyhow it is all too late now - they have already sold us out - so nothing can be done about it now.

Surprising what humans will do for money - I know it has been said that it is not about money - but it always is.

This is easily the saddest thing that has happened in the game art industry for quite some time now. But I bet all the other 3D painter tool companies are dancing right now, not every day competing software just throws the towel in and hands the lead back to you.

I wonder if Allegorithmic understand just how much of a dirty word they are in the 3D Art industry right now.

I use Photoshop every day, and while I like it a great deal, it is easily the clunkiest UI to work with out of all my game art dev tools, I can't imagine how they can contribute to such a fantastic tool as Substance Painter.

What may help to lessen the feeling of complete abandonment and lack of loyalty to customers who supported Allegorithmic since its inception, would be some kind of explanation as to:

1) what a company like Adobe who has practically no presence in the 3D market could possibly bring to the table to improve an already industry standard tool.

2) And likewise what Allegorithmic feels that a company with inferior tools to its own feel they can learn from them.

Indeed I won't even comment the previous one: the argumentation is too deep to be contradicted (it was really useful to create an account just to write this). That said, explicit language/insults remain forbidden on this forum.


For your first question, you are right about the fact that Adobe has practically no presence in 3D (for now). That's exactly why we joined them, and why they placed us in the position to lead their 3D initiative: because we do have this experience. But Adobe is going to bring A LOT on the table. first, Adobe Dimension is very young but has a lot of potentials. Second (and more important to my point of view: Adobe has an army of researchers, who are thrilled to work on 3D topics. It potentially multiplies by a factor of 10 our R&D horsepower.


For your second point,  I will politely disagree: Photoshop and other Adobe tools have great UI and innovate for the markets/industries they are targeting. Once again Photoshop has never been thought for 3D texturing, thus, of course, it feels clunky if you are using it this way. It's like driving a Formula 1 in a rally: it would feel clunky because it's not made for that. Some of the tools created for Photoshop have no equivalent in the industry. Photoshop will continue on these markets, while we will continue to focus on 3d texturing, and I really hope we'll take inspiration from existing Adobe tools when it makes sense, while they will do the same with our tools.

[OldFlak]

Well first up thanks for the reply.

I know I probably come across as pretty peeved - and well that is true I guess as many others are in the industry.

Perhaps, and I hope so, you are right in your vision for making a better tool with input from Adobe. But I think I would speak for many others in that you could easily do it without them - as you already had. But hey the future will unfold as to whether it was a good move for you and the industry. I truly fear it will not be good for the industry - at least not for the little guys anyway.

On the second point I mentioned I also would have to politely disagree with you about the UI for Adobe tools - well I can only speak for Photoshop (simply can't afford any of the others even if I had a use for them).

I have a love\hate relationship with Photoshop that has been going on for many many years, and currently I use it every day for both 3D texturing and 2D design work, and I can honestly say that the UI always at some point gets in the way. They really could learn a lot from other tools out there.

After using Substance Painter or even Blenders 2D UV mapping tools and firing up Photoshop the clunky nature of the UI is all too apparent. I get what you say about the formula one on a rally track, but the principles used for UV mapping in Blender just for panning around the 2D image area are miles ahead of Photoshop.

Another thing is the way you can split out all the various windows in Substance Painter over multiple monitors. While you can do the same in Photoshop (not that there are that many needed) it just is not user friendly - just try it, it is horrible to work with.

Anyhow I know the horse has already bolted and we just have to see how it all pans out now. But I really can't express how sad this is for many of us out here.

Just my 2 cents as it were....

[Vincent Gault]

Well first up thanks for the reply.

I know I probably come across as pretty peeved - and well that is true I guess as many others are in the industry.

Perhaps, and I hope so, you are right in your vision for making a better tool with input from Adobe. But I think I would speak for many others in that you could easily do it without them - as you already had. But hey the future will unfold as to whether it was a good move for you and the industry. I truly fear it will not be good for the industry - at least not for the little guys anyway.

On the second point I mentioned I also would have to politely disagree with you about the UI for Adobe tools - well I can only speak for Photoshop (simply can't afford any of the others even if I had a use for them).

I have a love\hate relationship with Photoshop that has been going on for many many years, and currently I use it every day for both 3D texturing and 2D design work, and I can honestly say that the UI always at some point gets in the way. They really could learn a lot from other tools out there.

After using Substance Painter or even Blenders 2D UV mapping tools and firing up Photoshop the clunky nature of the UI is all too apparent. I get what you say about the formula one on a rally track, but the principles used for UV mapping in Blender just for panning around the 2D image area are miles ahead of Photoshop.

Another thing is the way you can split out all the various windows in Substance Painter over multiple monitors. While you can do the same in Photoshop (not that there are that many needed) it just is not user friendly - just try it, it is horrible to work with.

Anyhow I know the horse has already bolted and we just have to see how it all pans out now. But I really can't express how sad this is for many of us out here.

Just my 2 cents as it were....

Thanks for sharing: it's always welcome

[gustavorios2]

let me tell you why I think trying to make the indie game industry accept adobe is a waste of time:

Usually, indie game developers live and work with a VERY limited amount of money, and games only pay themselves (maybe) after the release (that sometimes takes years)
Allegoritmic was one of the few companies that offered a very useful software for a cheap and single payment.

Adobe, on the other hand, requires a monthly payment for their products.
It doesn't matter what you say, indie game developers can't give up their games to have a shiny adobe software installed.

The only chance to make this work is if Adobe never removes the lifetime licenses, which I pretty much think its impossible.

I still think Adobe is great for a lot of industries, especially the ones that movement money on short periods of time.
But for indie game development, well probably just look for an alternative.

[OldFlak]

.... well probably just look for an alternative.

Everyone I know who has Substance is already making plans (saving money etc) to do just that.
The vast majority of people I know who are into 3D game dev won't touch Adobe CC, or any other tool that uses the subscription only basis.

I have already cancelled and removed my substance subscription software and have put my Perpetual Copy back into play, so I can finish a few projects that have been started with it, even though it means creating new projects for several models already started.

We just have to accept the fact that no one in the 3D industry other than some of the major Game Dev engines care too much about Indie Developers - we just don't really count - corporations are all about money, which we don't have, so it is no loss to them. We can only hope that Adobe keep the perpetual licenses active for a while - but they will be abolished.

Best to bite the bullet fired at us and just start the journey to another tool. It's a shame because of all the tools I have, Substance is easily my favorite, but it is already on the list for the Recycle Bin. There are always alternatives.

[From My Mum's Basement]

So if one doesn't care about the Abobe horror express train, and simply freezes with the current Substance permanent licenses, then how long could these usefully roll in a workflow ?  Some years ?

[Vincent Gault]

So if one doesn't care about the Abobe horror express train, and simply freezes with the current Substance permanent licenses, then how long could these usefully roll in a workflow ?  Some years ?

I would say as long as the new features are not relevant for you.

[gustavorios2]

.... well probably just look for an alternative.

We just have to accept the fact that no one in the 3D industry other than some of the major Game Dev engines care too much about Indie Developers - we just don't really count - corporations are all about money, which we don't have, so it is no loss to them.

well, there are two ways of making money selling software;
cheap for a lot of people or expensive for a few.

how many substance seats to make a AAA? let's say 80 per studio?
if you look at indiedb there are currently almost 40k games.
"indie game developer" group on Facebook currently holds 114k users.
 Taking into account, not all indie games are on indiedb and facebook (China, Russia) and not all need substance. but looks like a much big number.

Epic games skyrocketed their business after giving software free and changing their business plan.
so, yeah, there are many ways to make money.

[Epithumia]

Psst..

Adobe Photoshop supports 3D Mouse.
Now you're part of Adobe...

[Vincent Gault]

Psst..

Adobe Photoshop supports 3D Mouse.
Now you're part of Adobe...

Haha indeed 

[michaelgeisler]

... well probably just look for an alternative.

I already switched to Modo because I don’t agree with the licensing policies of Autodesk and maybe I will also switch to Mari for texturing it’s also a very nice tool and they seem to keep their Perpetual license system, and I saw that Blender has some very nice Texturing tools as well. I’m currently still subscribed, let’s see where all of this will lead us.

I’m also scared that Allegorythmic will go a similar as Mixamo. The online service lost Features and sometimes Completely shut down and since they where bought by adobe there wasn’t any updates anymore…