Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 70135 times)

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
This is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

I am considering to subscribe for 12 months (with monthly payment) with the goal to convert it to a perpetual license next year, in January 2020. Questions:
1) If I start this 12 months subscription now, can I still convert to a perpetual license next year with the $49 extra payment? If the answer is yes, is that 100% certain?
2) There is a mixed information whether or not perpetual will be valid in the future. Vincent Gault says above "we don't have visibility yet", however another staff member said on the previous (now locked discussion) that perpetual license will be valid. His answer is there, please look it up. This is contradicting info, which info is correct?
3) Can Substance Painter be activated offline via a downloaded license file, or it is activated by contacting a central server? I am asking this because my fear is that even if I convert to perpetual next year, I need to have the confidence that I can use the app even if Adobe shuts down the server etc. I assume they would not, but better to prepare for all eventualities.

Thanks!

As a side note:
you really need to understand artist's reaction. Imagine if the only way to use a Nikon camera is via rental. Most young artists cannot even get onto the property ladder anymore and Adobe's subscription attitude IS part of this worldwide problem. It needs to be stopped. I understand that software developers need to constantly earn money, but how come Nikon can survive by selling, and not renting cameras?

And it reminds me to add the "will we keep free licenses for students to the concerns...

For question 1&  2: existing perpetual licenses will remain perpetual: we don't change what already exists. And any engagement we made will be respected, meaning that if you are into our current monthly payment you will have the option to buy.
So for your 12 months scenario, I'll imagine the 2 cases (it's my feeling based on how we treat things):

-Nothing changes, so problem solved.

-We change our model: in that case, we would give you the choice to do whatever you want. You can embrace it if you like it, or decide to get the perpetual license you have been cumulating for (once again, this is my feeling and not a promise: we don't have visibility on this).

- Same for the Substance Source points: you won't lose anything.

Question 3: I have absolutely no idea sorry

I must admit, I'm a tad surprised any company would agree to a deal without, apparently, any actual decisions having been made as to what that deal entails. Once signed, basically, it leaves the door open to any and all permutations which suit the buyer and that just seems like a bad business move. Of course, if the thing that was agreed is employees get to stay on, (for now) and won't see their jobs change, (as things stand), then I get that. That was part of the deal the director had of a company I worked for, until it changed following a "restructure and streamlining". Maybe I'm cynical due to having that sort of thing happen on more than one occasion, so corporate speak doesn't hold much weight for me.
However, I am always willing to be surprised, but I wouldn't even get work done on the house without a solid agreement, let alone surrender my company.

So, none of that was "defined" before a deal was made? I'm starting to think you guys really don't care about your users. I don't own "PAY to Play" anything "Adobe", not planning on it in the future either. Never have liked the idea of anything that is "PAY to Play". I like to own or at least think I own the software I'm using. I will continue to use my "perpetual" license as long as "Adobe" allows me. Then I'll be switching to something else.

Many things have been discussed, and many things are on the table. Once again we knew, perpetual licensing would be one of the mains concerns, and that's why I placed it at the top of the list.

Nothing has to be casted in stone forever. Adobe has seen the reaction of your user base. Why not swap over to your current Allegorithmic license system? Perpetual licenses plus maintenance gives everbody more confidence.
(... I have still my CS 6Ex, waiting for a perpetual upgrade, wanna some money Adobe, eh? ...)

Ok, we have to accept your decision. And vice versa. How about a poll how the A-license system should look like in the near future?

Cheers,

Peter

Once again nothing at all has been decided. We noticed (and already knew) that perpetual license would be on top of the list of the concerns (even if ironically it's by far the least purchased option, but the fact that "it's possible" is key)

So as we don't do bullshit messages: nothing is decided yet, multiples options are being discussed, for you guys, for current Adobe customers, so there are good chances to see different options to fit the different needs. So wait and see on this one.


Why is is so hard to understand??? perpetual license might have been by far the least purchased option, because WE CHOSE TO SUPPORT YOU on a monthly basis and we got source points for it. your future/ our future looked bright. now you playing smart with us?! if this id your humour then I gotta say it's neither funny nor entertaining. you are so sure of yourselves.. let's see how this plays out and where you will be in 5 years' time.  ...perhaps in a tent under some bridge ?!?

"You took the wrong decision"
"No we didn't"
"yes you did"
"No" "Yes" etc... This is a summary of an easy trolling topic.

So what we can do is expose is our point of view, and we can agree to disagree on this.

What we see is the 3D industry booming in the upcoming years, and we want to be ready when it happens and bring our ideas/solutions to the table. And reviewing the options/discussing with potential partners, we chose Adobe, because that gave us the trust and the keys to build our vision. We have been in touch with them for the last 2 years, so we are confident with the relationship we can build with them.
Once again we can agree to not agree, but this neither an aggressive takeover, nor a naive decision.

This is just semantics which tells nothing about us whos concered about Allegorithmics road map.
'because that gave us the trust and the keys to build our vision' what does this even means?
claiming its not about adobes 180 billion dollars , what does a company with 0 history of 3d (rather than killing 3d vfx related softwares) can be holding as a key. Any experience in the field? no. Any expertise? not slightly. Any passion innovation? i am sure you guys already know what a blend node is. Customer relations? with adobe you are lucky if you can talk with a guy from india recommending you to restart your computer.

hmm, they already had CC malware downloaded in a broad range of computers  so when 3D industry is booming offering whats supposed to be a specialized software to wider range of people?

so that question might be added?
'are you planning to dumb substance down to fit in with adobes target market'

Please don't be too shocked by the reception of this news. Many of us are gamers and we have seen this happen many times before.

Activision merged with Blizzard and they recently drove the company into the grave. I mean it's still there but as a former shell of itself and after Diablo Immortal everyone knows that the franchises we love are going in some very bad directions. The CEO leaving, MASSIVE layoffs, MASSIVE change in corporate culture, meaning the replacement of investing time and money into products with low effort for high profit. Sure they were making money, but not as much as Activision wanted them.

BioWare used to make deep RPGs with interesting gameplay and characters. Then they got bought by EA and while we had some excellent products like Dragon Age, ME1 and 2 in the long run it's obvious the deal was bad for them. Sure, the new games are more polished but with less substance (pun intended) And don't forget about all the other studios ruined by EA.

As soon as these studios no longer produce as much money as their corporate overlords want them to they are restructured and quality is replaced by low effort for high profit because people know they are going to buy their stuff just because of brand recognition and marketing.

Us gamers have seen this happen many many times before and we simply don't have the patience for this anymore. Maybe you becoming part of Adobe will be good, even excellent, in the short term (1, maybe two years) but how do we know this is going to be good in the long term, especially considering the fact that we intend to use these programs for years to come? How do we know they won't force you to simplify the programs so they can cater to the casual market if you are not making as much money as they want? They might not force you to do this this year, maybe not even the next, but what guarantee do we have that they won't? This isn't just a video game to us, this is a long-term investment.

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
This is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

Come on man, why did you accept the deal before knowing exactly what is going to happen? We know YOU have good intentions but so far Adobe has not given us reasons to stay calm.

For people I answered in PM: the feeling is legit, but except restarting long exchanges of point of views, it won't bring new answers to the table. hope you understand Jenes.

Hey Vincent, thanks for your summary.
I have a few questions.

  • What will happen to Substance Source / Substance Share?
  • What will happen to Steam version?

I'm currently working in AAA game company, so I guess we will buy whatever you guys throw at us. Because all of your products are part of our graphic art and rendering pipeline.
But I have planned to buy pepretual Indie license for my personal project. So is it good time to buy it, or I should wait, until the things are clear? You guys should do at least one sale, before switching to Adobe CC or whatever it will be.
And I hope there will be enough time to purchase things before the switching to Adobe licensing model.

I really appreciate your hard work and dedication guys. But please, stay determined and keep doing things in your own special way.
And sorry about my English ;)
Thank you.

We have no plan to kill substance Source or Substance Share: we just launched a new version of Source, and the content is so specific, that the website has to be taylor made.

Same for Substance Share: it's one of our most successful platform, so except updating it (because this is due) it's going nowhere.

I will use a "for now" for Steam: we don't have visibility

Bonjour,
Je n'ai pas lu les 50 pages du thread précédent, le fait que je m'exprime en français ne va pas aider à avoir une réponse.
Bon je trouvais très flatteur pour mon égo qu'Allegorithmic soit une (petite ?) société française ayant un savoir faire reconnu au niveau mondial dans un domaine peu connu mais "high tech".

Les vraies causes de cette vente et de ce rachat nous seront évidement à jamais inconnues, l'argument financier du "nous avons besoin de plus de moyen pour nous développer" n'est pas convaincant. Quand une société est vendue, c'est avant tout parce que les dirigeants en ont assez de diriger : Trop de pression, trop de contraintes légales ou personnelles.

Je crains de ne pas aller plus loin que ma petite licence amateur version 2017. Une chose est certaine, Adobe n'a aucun intérêt pour les amateurs dans mon genre et leurs budgets de 100 à 150 € ou $... tous les 3 ou 4 ans.

Les américains sont des gens pragmatiques, pendant deux trois ans, rien ne va changer en effet, Après... et bien.. Soit vous etes rentables soit ... mais bon, vous avez du en discuter encore et encore entre vous.

Bon courage et bonne chance à l'équipe.

'because that gave us the trust and the keys to build our vision' what does this even means?
'are you planning to dumb substance down to fit in with adobes target market'

For the vision, we have many R&D that may be "accelerated", most of them, we are not ready to communicate (you may have seen some of our UVs experiences though)

Second question is "not at all": SP & SD and upcoming Substance Alchemist are our key products, and broadly used. There are absolutely no reason to drop them. And yes, they will be available to more users.

One of your concerns, you show is that Adobe is not in touch with the 3D community: they now are thanks to us, and we have no plan to drop neither the way we communicate with you nor the way we support our products.

Just get back to us if you notice in the future that it's not the case.

How much did Allegorithmic sell out to Adobe for?


How many people have canceled Allegorithmic, since the announcement of the sell out?
I know I did along with my other co workers.











Bonjour,
Je n'ai pas lu les 50 pages du thread précédent, le fait que je m'exprime en français ne va pas aider à avoir une réponse.
Bon je trouvais très flatteur pour mon égo qu'Allegorithmic soit une (petite ?) société française ayant un savoir faire reconnu au niveau mondial dans un domaine peu connu mais "high tech".

Les vraies causes de cette vente et de ce rachat nous seront évidement à jamais inconnues, l'argument financier du "nous avons besoin de plus de moyen pour nous développer" n'est pas convaincant. Quand une société est vendue, c'est avant tout parce que les dirigeants en ont assez de diriger : Trop de pression, trop de contraintes légales ou personnelles.

Je crains de ne pas aller plus loin que ma petite licence amateur version 2017. Une chose est certaine, Adobe n'a aucun intérêt pour les amateurs dans mon genre et leurs budgets de 100 à 150 € ou $... tous les 3 ou 4 ans.

Les américains sont des gens pragmatiques, pendant deux trois ans, rien ne va changer en effet, Après... et bien.. Soit vous etes rentables soit ... mais bon, vous avez du en discuter encore et encore entre vous.

Bon courage et bonne chance à l'équipe.

Merci, pour ton point de vue, mais  tes spéculations sur les raisons de la vente sont erronées, que tu sois convaincu ou non :-)
Le but de ce thread étant d'éviter de long débats, je ne rajouterai rien à ce que j'ai marqué précedemment. (Merci de partager ton point de vue en tout cas).

Supposing a guy buys an indie license now, then goes over the higher turnover in five years.  Can he then simply continue to use the same indie license if you went to Adobe in the meantime ?

How much did Allegorithmic sell out to Adobe for?

How many people have canceled Allegorithmic, since the announcement of the sell out?
I know I did along with my other co workers.

1: legally undisclosed number
2: I have to check (the numbers + if I am allowed to share them

Edit question 2 :There have been very few moves whether for cancellations or new subscriptions (roughly 1%). But even very few is already too much, and we are looking at them properly.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 03:56:05 pm

Supposing a guy buys an indie license now, then goes over the higher turnover in five years.  Can he then simply continue to use the same indie license if you went to Adobe in the meantime ?

I can't make a 5 years forecast. Even if we would have stayed Allegorithmic, it would have been impossible to answer this question.

"We are scared to lose perpetual licenses because Adobe uses perpetual licenses"
This is one of the topics, where we don't have visibility yet, so you have the right to be skeptical until we deliver a clear model.

"I'll pay way more for the same products"
Even if I seriously doubt it, once again we don't have visibility so you can remain skeptical until we deliver.

2 days ago in the first thread your answer was a clear: "no, you will not lose your perpetual license" and also: "Yes, you still will be able to upgrade into perpetual license if you have an ongoing 12 month constant subscription right now"

And after 2 days it turns out that you do not have visibility due to this question? - It will not calm dawn the community I'm afraid.

Please, try to short it out as fast as posible. Please understand, that it's not about that non of us can handle the
financial loss, but psichologicaly it's a huge burden, that will block an ongoing constructive conversation about the future, about this change.

And please allow me immediately a question based on this subject:
- how you see, the future due to upcoming competition? Probablly a lot of comanies will try to grab the opportunity to develop a texturing system as you have. Why it's an opportunity? Becouse few days ago you were the lonely wolf rockstars of 3D DCCs, no one really wanted to go versus Substance, since the 3d content creator community would immediately digg a grave for him... But now! Now they would go versus Adobe and with that they will be able to even roleplay the wight-knights of 3d texturing community.
- Do you know how far Mudbox is from substance painter due to texturing for example? And do you know how much it cost right now? (of course it's not the right comparison, since Mudbox is an organic sculpting DCC tool in the first place)
- Do you know how far Houdini is from substance designer with their "COP" system? Do you know how much Houdini Indi cost? Houdini Indi! The most complex, most profesional 3D indi DCC tool in the market.
And probablly there are a lot who are lurking now in the shadows and will jump in the right moment.
- Can you imagine that if you add Alchemy to our existing substance bundle, and maybe lower the prices a bit for the new incomers, will it be able to keep the competition with the upcoming "siege tools" that will defenately be released by these giants?