Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (part 1)  (Read 105783 times)


this video is TERRIFYING indeed.
1)So adobe was on board for the last 2 years and thats how they showcase painter? even with 10 minutes youtube search you can figure out a way better 10 sec promo video material for substance.

This, very much this, C'mon guys, anyone who has used SP knows this is a really bad "showcase", any one of your current users could of produced better in 10 minutes. You know it, we know it.  Heck, I've not used SP for long, but I guarantee you, I could of done a better job.

I would add, joking about it isn't great, "hah, yeah, bad", I mean, you should not need to NOW give them feedback, that thing should never of hit the web. If Adobe put it out without running it by you, then mayhap the control you think you'll retain in the future isn't a foregone conclusion. If you truly are in control of every aspect of the substance software, surely the marketing of same is your remit as well?
Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 01:40:15 pm

Dimensions 'deadware' is using Vray, not Iray. To showcase SP as a 'companion' to the 'Keyshot for soccer moms' rubbish that is Dimensions is an insult to Allego and their incredible, industry defining tools. What a f**king waste!

Adobe has absolutely no business 'expanding' to the 3D sector. There was a rumour a few weeks back that Adobe had purchased Modo, but that was untrue. It now looks like they will go with C4D instead, as it's the go-to for motion graphics. This, to me, means that Substance tool influence and dedication to the games industry, first and foremost, will be either greatly diminished or completely ignored. Integration with UE4/Unity and all the other major 3D DCCs will most likely be abolished so that Adobe can keep Substance tools within their 'family' of tools for 2D logo 'artists', product designers, and corporate dabblers with ZERO ability to create in a third dimension.

I realise this is all complete speculation with no basis other than my own personal deductions, but I hope I am completely wrong on this.

World renowned games studios have built entire pipelines around using Allego's tools. I just can't believe that they[Allego] would be forced to abandon their vision and dedication to the games industry under direct orders from their new overlords. Surely the integrity and passion of everyone involved with Allego would have thrashed out a contract that allowed them to continue their revolutionary vision. Please tell me you did......

This, very much this, C'mon guys, anyone who has used SP knows this is a really bad "showcase", any one of your current users could of produced better in 10 minutes. You know it, we know it.  Heck, I've not used SP for long, but I guarantee you, I could of done a better job.

I think some of you might be missing the point of that video. I don't think any of the decisions they made were unintentional, or that the creators are unaware of what Painter can do, or that Adobe needs pointers on how to market their products better. The video demonstrates Painter in a way that fits in with Adobe's marketing strategy:

1) It makes Painter look easy to use
There's no fast mouse movements or anything too complex going on. It makes the viewer think "hey, I could easily stamp my logo onto a 3D product! That's awesome!"

2) It makes Painter look like it's on even-footing with Dimension
I think it's more than likely that the low frame-rate was a conscious decision. If Painter's viewer both looked nicer and ran better than Dimension's, it would reflect poorly on Adobe's own product.

Maxon is part of Nemetschek Group (allplan, vectorworks etc) and it's very well established, so is The Foundry. Any acquisition by Adobe regarding C4D or Modo is very very unlikely. Even Newtek with Lightwave, with all the difficulties, is still in the business by themself.

I totally agree that Adobe has no business expanding the 3D sector in a broad sense, also the gap of complexity between any common 2D Adobe app and any the elite 3D app (Maya, Max, Houdini or Blender) is huge for the casual apple hipster or wannabe graphic designer Adobe is aiming.

I'll add the fact that they offers Premiere and AE, but they still don't have any serious compositing software, which explains why Adobe has no business to fit in any 3D production or VFX pipeline. The Foundry covers basically everything with Nuke, Modo, Mari, Katana, why they should sell Modo?

Gaming though is still very lucrative and somewhat easier to fit in, so I guess they want to squeeze something there.

The embarrassing showcase Adobe just published is proving that the Allegorithmic's guys were not even informed, and the candid response from Vincent about the fact now they can give feedback is just distressing.

pws



I think some of you might be missing the point of that video. I don't think any of the decisions they made were unintentional, or that the creators are unaware of what Painter can do, or that Adobe needs pointers on how to market their products better. The video demonstrates Painter in a way that fits in with Adobe's marketing strategy:

... It makes Painter look like it's on even-footing with Dimension[/b]
I think it's more than likely that the low frame-rate was a conscious decision. If Painter's viewer both looked nicer and ran better than Dimension's, it would reflect poorly on Adobe's own product.

Fair point that, yep, make your existing product look like it can keep up, though again, not sure that sets a positive light for how Substance is gonig to be handled. "Make it look slow N dumb guys".

Dimension uses an in-house raytracer (it was using Vray in its first version) and uses the MDL format for its materials, same as iray.
Substance materials either from SD or SP will render 100% identical in Dimension already.

Ah, that makes sense then, perfect bedfellows...

Surely it's not a coincidence that both SD/SP and Adobe Dimension both now use IRay

This is not a criticism or a slight, merely an observation ;)
It's probably because of nVidia and CUDA cores.

I am a relatively new subscriber to the Substance tools and have only partially been working with them since around September.  I own 3D Coat but started using Substance Painter very specifically for its direct export to gLTF, which 3d Coat does not offer.

As I am less invested in this software and pipeline than most others here probably are, the recent events, while distressing, are not as catastrophic for me.  Plus, as much as I loathe Adobe and their subscription racket, as a motion and graphics designer a CC subscription is pretty much required in  order for me to work with clients, not to mention the considerable investment in plugins I have for After Effects.

However, I too am trying to wrestle with whether to maintain my subscription and how much additional time I should put in to learning the Substance tools more deeply. The two things I need to know as soon as possible in order to make such decisions are as follows.  Would be very grateful to any legitimate authority who could provide guidance.

(1) Seven months from now when I complete the 12 consecutive monthly subscription payments, will I still have the opportunity to purchase a perpetual license for $49?

(2) When the Substance tools are fully integrated into Creative Cloud - do current CC subscribers automatically get access to them all for the same CC subscription price we have been paying, or will that monthly CC fee increase? Or will CC subscribers only be given access to a subset of the Substance tools and have to pay extra for the others?  Now that would really suck!

If the monthly CC subscription stays the same with all included Substance programs, then that at least saves me the additional $20 I have been paying to Allegorithmic. So that kind of monetary consolidation is not a bad deal (in the short term at least).

These are the things I need to know sooner rather than later.  For my needs there are a few viable alternatives.  Blender 2.8 now includes by default the Khronos gLTF importer / exporter.  And while I have not yet done any complex material creations with Designer, some of its functionality also exists in the very stable and capable node based program Filter Forge, which I also own.  Filter Forge can be used stand alone, or as a Photoshop and Affinity plugin (I have not tried Affinity yet).  It can utilize HDR lighting and output to several types of texture maps.  Though PBR output and workflow is not yet directly implemented, I had asked the developers about this and it is definitely something they are planning on adding.  Hopefully now more quickly than originally intended.

Now – trying to be optimistic.  One thing I would hope for since this unholy union is cold hard fact is for the Substance tools to at least find some new useful ways to leverage what strengths do exist in Adobe products, rather than Adobe programs simply striping down to eat away Substance tools like vultures and leave them a hollow carcass.  Maybe Substance can utilize After Effects motion features to provide an easier and more feature rich path to animated textures?  That is something I would love to see!
Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 06:22:02 pm

Allegorithmic,

What do you have to say to all the commissioned artists, indie developers and hobbyists who propped up your product and got it pushed into production pipelines all over the industry to bring you to  where you are now?

What do you say to the people who will not be able to afford your product once its been re-priced and re-branded for the Adobe CC lineup?

It's a nice wake-up call to the inherent problems of relying too heavily one a single tool. I vow to become more flexible in every stage of my workflows, so that I can adapt easily in all my future endeavors.

From this day forward until I bite the dust, I also vow to never, ever use sub-only software. There are enough alternatives at this point that I can choose to do this and not suffer too much. It may also broaden my scope of what is possible in the long run. And also, it may end up being a lot more fun!

My last post!! I'll miss this place! I'll miss you guys!

Mic drop, out.
3D art is magic.

pdg


A few days ago, I set myself to try and learn SD, it looked fabulous and I was really excited to begin. Well, speak about timing here ;D

I'm reading all that can be read on the subject, it's interesting to say the least. The price and licensing argument aside, as I kind of see it as a separate issue, what really bothers me is what the future holds in terms of updates, functionality and Adobization.

I really dislike big companies like Adobe, as they tend to simply remove the "soul" of a project (I know, its a little idealistic word, but you got the idea). It simply becomes a corporate monster, not a loved and well thought product.
It generally inherits a cancer mutation culture, with wild bits of functionnality pushed by a management that has no understanding of what they are doing, less so what the programmers or founders are and were planning.

On top of it, you have so much internal ego and position battles between departments, changes in management, with every new one having a new idea about the whole thing and trying to put its name on it, or destroying it, slowly or quickly, for whatever reason, that the coherent vision is simply gone, not because the company has a satanic agenda, but because the structure of such a company makes the outcome look evil.

The "Peter Jackson" blog post was painful to read. It made me cringe to be honest. It was all too excited, but in a... very corporate way. When I finished reading this, I was pretty convinced that something was a bit wrong here.
I kept thinking about a future blog post about an "OH SH*T moment", when he realizes that well, he's not in charge anymore, and maybe one day, have a Palmer Luckey moment and simply be gone, leaving his baby to strangers.

Keeping analogies, I think of Apple, that has been through several corporate phases, and is a bold evidence that a company needs a strong, coherent vision, despite shareholders. Apple was Steve Jobs' playground, today it's still going on Ive's views, but it has already lost something in the way. Those companies are very rare, and Adobe isn't one of them.

I'm a bit sad, I saw and felt a lot of love for this company and their software everywhere, it was like discovering ZBrush and its whole great community. You can feel that something was different, because let's be honest, everybody loves the little indie guy doing incredible things vs. enormous bloated cash machines. It adds something to the experience, it adds value and encourages creativity. Well, maybe I'm too emotional here, but using big bloated software everyday, I really enjoy the small ones, it makes me happy to give money and share.
The "petit poucet" (Tom Thumb in French) is the one everybody love, and I see a real cultural shift toward this, people seek it and it's great.

Good luck everyone ! Bonne chance les gars !

they 'have to' say most  heartwarming and cushy things about Adobe products now.
need to do your own research and tests

'You can buy these wonderful models from https://stock.adobe.com/3d-assets and make your designer friends jealous with your renders yeyyy'
My favorites are garlic model and 'LOVE' text.

From the Peter Jackson moment
“Adobe is bringing Allegorithmic on board so that we can, along with the incredible talent at Adobe which has already been working on 3D projects and research, invent the next generation of 3D creative tools, with Substance as a flagship product, but also combining Adobe’s own current 3D initiatives like Adobe Dimension, and more,”

so their priority will never ever be games and films.

It's $30 a month to get 10 assets off that store. Hooo boy the quality you get for the price.

Do not missunderstood me, I do not have and never had any models, assets in that store, but in this question I'm on the artists side. 30dollar / month is nothing compaired, that Adobe takes 70% income and you should pay your taxes to US + to your own country as well if you do not live in the US (from your left 30% lol) now make a guess what chances a modeler has to sell something in that store when there are already nearly 7000 models.
So yea, I guess we do not have to be surprised that some of the models are lacking a bit there...

But well, it could be 90% to the Artist and 10% to Adobe (they have quite expensive software subscription pans right?) and the sub could be much cheaper... so al in all everyone would be happy...oh wait but this scenario do not seems like as a giant company is keeping slaves in it's backyard who are 3D modeling for him from a little village in the 3. world where they lacking in sweet water, but lucky them they have internet, so the most talented guy from the village can earn 15 dollars / day.

70/30 - thats the first and most cardinal issue there! Disgusting! And the artist should pay the tax after the sale(?) + after his income(well that part is ok)




The "Peter Jackson" blog post was painful to read. It made me cringe to be honest. It was all too excited, but in a... very corporate way. When I finished reading this, I was pretty convinced that something was a bit wrong here.
I kept thinking about a future blog post about an "OH SH*T moment", when he realizes that well, he's not in charge anymore, and maybe one day, have a Palmer Luckey moment and simply be gone, leaving his baby to strangers.


I cant wrap my head around this. Allegorithmic is 20 years ahead of Adobe with its 150 employers versus Adobes 30.000.
I am not trying to be political here but just for the sake of analogy.
Its like a developing 3rd world country colonizing over 1st world country and president of that 1st world country is extremely happy because they are bringing their bad business habbits and unhappy citizens(customers) with them to pull them 20 years back.

It just doesnt makes sense.

Dimension uses an in-house raytracer (it was using Vray in its first version) and uses the MDL format for its materials, same as iray.
Substance materials either from SD or SP will render 100% identical in Dimension already.

A RTX GPU accelerated version is also in the works.

It can render pretty expensive scenes, example:



Thanks for the info!

Pardon me by mentioning this, but there was one thing that I did not liked in your product and it was Iray. Sure, it's clear that Nvidia probablly supported Allegorythmic to force You to use their (Nvidia's) homebrew render engine, that of course will not utalize any other GPU cores than Nvidia's own ones. (It's so funny by the way, that AMD's ProRender allow us to use AMD cards and Nvidia cards in the same time, but it never will be true due to a render where Nvidia is lurking in the background)
Long story short, Iray produced a bunch of artifacts when I rendered with it, I tried to push sampling numbers to the sky, but still they appiered. And of course it was not made as a "real" render engine more like a "lets take a look" option.

I see Adobe Dimension is 20 dollars / month. Basicaly the same as Octane, Redshift... well but it seems it goes hand to hand with the big boys.
EEVEE free, AMD ProRender free, LuxCore/ LuxRender free...

I'm more and more exaited how you will shake the 3D industry on Adobes site.
I will be honest (And I guess it's known by you and by everyone) There are two options:
- you will be heroes and make a revolution inside the 3D DCC market + a bunch of income
- or it will be the biggest fail in the DCC market

(first of all, that "Dimension" should go free, untill it can not show up something like Octane, Redshift, Arnold, Renderman.... and when it will be able to offer MORE than it can go for 20/month)

Some pay for Maya or Max, becouse it has Arnold in it
Some use Blender becouse it has 2 quite great render engines in it FREE
Some use Unity just becouse it has FREE Octane render engine in it (since 4.0)

You see, this is how it will be:
- Max, Maya, Arnold
- Blender, Cycles, EEVEE
- Unity, Octane
- Substance, Dimension (your team)

Will you be able to force us to Choose Your team?

Even though my first reaction was like...




I´m sure there will be plenty of time before adobe converts substance in a crappy CC app. Until that happens, let´s enjoy this marvelous piece of soft that everyone loves.