Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (part 1)

[psevez]

I'm waiting for the next brillant software company owned by 5,000 or 50,000,000 co-owner - users. I'm pretty sure a lot of users are ready to pay a little to be co-owner and keep their tools far away from the unique and imperfect strategies of big companies.

The company of this kind already exist - Blender Foundation. No one corp will ever get control over it - at least for legal reasons. At the same time companies like Epic Games invest into Blender as well - but without any opportunity to acquire it. This is an honest and fair support.

With all respect for business decisions of founders, but declare "funding to explore many other areas we couldn't afford to before" as one reason for the buyout seems a bit indelicate for me as a customer. Maybe Adobe is funding indeed some kind of 'allegorithmic Sandbox' over one or two financial years as a assisted living playground for the awesome engineers of former allegorithmic.

But Adobe won't fund any kind of Sandbox from their own cash roll - this investment will be more likely priced a position in the quarterly minimum yields of the new acquisition. Add shareholders return and we easily reach a reasonable monthly price range between 200% and 450% of the former prices.
So it's not easy for prior allegorithmic customers to recognize any advantage of this familyreunion even though it might provide funding for some lab explorations.

As for me this is the most dark side of this story. It is always better to evolve but stay independent than try to cut corners and loose yourself. Growing on steroids have been always know to be harmful. This never works as expected. I think Pixologic had million opportunities to do the same. They have a small company too and limited resources as well. And their users want so many new features, an Pixo knows it, but still they prefer a slow but progressive development of ZBrush over any alternatives. And what is most amazing and shocking - they still never charge for updates! Even if you have ZBrush 1.0 (released in 2000) - you're eligible to upgrade to ZBrush 2018 for free. No milking at all. I absolutely admire this approach.

[TooManyDemons]

I would very much be interested in a new forum for texture artists to discuss their methods. I don't want to waste any more time crying about this. Can someone recommend (or start) a thread for alternative workflows?

[danielanon]

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO PERPETUAL LICENCES?

If you read the Adobe press release they've made it clear that perpetual licenses will not exist and it will be under the umbrella of CC.

Just like they've done with past perpetual licenses (both their own, and acquired) they will terminate the licensing servers and force you to subscribe. If you take a look into the past as an example when it will occur, probably within the first year, definitely in the second.

I am definitely expecting adobe to attempt invalidating our perpetuals. Any idea if we have any kind of legal ground for a class action lawsuit when it happens?

I suggest taking recorded evidence of your Licenses on the Website, taking recorded evidence of your licenses on your products, and downloading and activating all perpetual licenses you currently have because who knows if activating a perpetual licenses will even be allowed in the future. If you have solid proof of ownership to perpetual licenses then I believe you won't have anything to worry about. Perhaps don't update software a year or two from now though, maybe even sooner.

edit: In America this would be considered false advertising if Perpetual does not mean perpetual. I have taken video evidence and recorded quotes from Allegorithmic employees on the forums about Perpetual licenses, if they revoke them then Adobe will be able to be sued. Not by me, I'm not rich enough, but I'd be gladly willing to provide evidence. Adobe needs to come forward and state they will honor perpetual licenses because we all know just how predatory they can be. As far as I'm concerned the Substance team only has authority on the actual software now. All matters dealing with money is solely Adobe.

[DamienI]

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO PERPETUAL LICENCES?

If you read the Adobe press release they've made it clear that perpetual licenses will not exist and it will be under the umbrella of CC.

Just like they've done with past perpetual licenses (both their own, and acquired) they will terminate the licensing servers and force you to subscribe. If you take a look into the past as an example when it will occur, probably within the first year, definitely in the second.

I am definitely expecting adobe to attempt invalidating our perpetuals. Any idea if we have any kind of legal ground for a class action lawsuit when it happens?

No, unfortunately. All they have to do is call it a new version and say that they are dropping all support for the old outdated version and there's nothing you can do.

If we download the license file and choose the activate via license file option does it still check with the license servers?

Most likely does. Most modern software packages do.

[Froyok]

I would very much be interested in a new forum for texture artists to discuss their methods. I don't want to waste any more time crying about this. Can someone recommend (or start) a thread for alternative workflows?

I suggest taking a look at Polycount, it's a really good community : https://polycount.com/
(Yes I know I'm from Allegorithmic, but even tho, Polycount are cool guys.)

[Froyok]

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO PERPETUAL LICENCES?

If you read the Adobe press release they've made it clear that perpetual licenses will not exist and it will be under the umbrella of CC.

Just like they've done with past perpetual licenses (both their own, and acquired) they will terminate the licensing servers and force you to subscribe. If you take a look into the past as an example when it will occur, probably within the first year, definitely in the second.

I am definitely expecting adobe to attempt invalidating our perpetuals. Any idea if we have any kind of legal ground for a class action lawsuit when it happens?

No need for a lawsuits guys, you keep your perpetual licenses, no doubt about that. You own it.

[CAGameDEV]

I've been thinking about getting a perpetual licence, but now I've changed my mind completely.

The major problem is we see posts like this in response to "What will happen to perpetual licenses?".



Now, unless the word 'perpetual' means something different, you cannot just revoke those licences. My assumption is that when Substance is fully part of the Creative Cloud, Adobe will most likely give a subscription credit amount for those with "legacy" perpetual licenses, then move them over into the subscription model.

--

per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/Submit
adjective
1. never ending or changing.
2. occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.

--

I would suggest not defining these licenses as perpetual as it's extremely misleading. Adobe really needs to come forward and let everyone here know what we're looking at in terms of pricing for the future. Investing our time and energy into keeping Substance as part of our workflows is pointless unless we know it's something that will be sustainable for the long haul. Games are not developed overnight, and changing the pipeline during development costs a lot of time and money in new licenses and training.

If going forward perpetual licences will not be offered, but prior ones honored, then that's a different story and should be clarified by Adobe through an official statement.

[juricakrizanic]

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO PERPETUAL LICENCES?

If you read the Adobe press release they've made it clear that perpetual licenses will not exist and it will be under the umbrella of CC.

Just like they've done with past perpetual licenses (both their own, and acquired) they will terminate the licensing servers and force you to subscribe. If you take a look into the past as an example when it will occur, probably within the first year, definitely in the second.

I am definitely expecting adobe to attempt invalidating our perpetuals. Any idea if we have any kind of legal ground for a class action lawsuit when it happens?

No need for a lawsuits guys, you keep your perpetual licenses, no doubt about that. You own it.

For now? Don't get me wrong, but I don't think you guys make that call anymore

[DamienI]

I've been thinking about getting a perpetual licence, but now I've changed my mind completely.

The major problem is we see posts like this in response to "What will happen to perpetual licenses?".



Now, unless the word 'perpetual' means something different, you cannot just revoke those licences. My assumption is that when Substance is fully part of the Creative Cloud, Adobe will most likely give a subscription credit amount for those with "legacy" perpetual licenses, then move them over into the subscription model.

--

per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/Submit
adjective
1. never ending or changing.
2. occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.

--

I would suggest not defining these licenses as perpetual as it's extremely misleading. Adobe really needs to come forward and let everyone here know what we're looking at in terms of pricing for the future. Investing our time and energy into keeping Substance as part of our workflows is pointless unless we know it's something that will be sustainable for the long haul. Games are not developed overnight, and changing the pipeline during development costs a lot of time and money in new licenses and training.

If going forward perpetual licences will not be offered, but prior ones honored, then that's a different story and should be clarified.

While you are right in that they can't revoke them, but if the software relies on a licensing server, and if that server is "cost burden" to the company then they can shut it down. That isn't revoking your license, its still your license, just the infrastructure that supported it is now gone.

They've done this before, many times. As have many other software providers. I expect no difference now.

The only way they can assure people is by decoupling the need for a licensing server to install or check for a valid license. (Aka, like how the old Modo licenses worked ... you have your own license file and thats all you need).

[theo.hallenius]

I've been thinking about getting a perpetual licence, but now I've changed my mind completely.

The major problem is we see posts like this in response to "What will happen to perpetual licenses?".



Now, unless the word 'perpetual' means something different, you cannot just revoke those licences. My assumption is that when Substance is fully part of the Creative Cloud, Adobe will most likely give a subscription credit amount for those with "legacy" perpetual licenses, then move them over into the subscription model.

--

per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/Submit
adjective
1. never ending or changing.
2. occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.

--

I would suggest not defining these licenses as perpetual as it's extremely misleading. Adobe really needs to come forward and let everyone here know what we're looking at in terms of pricing for the future. Investing our time and energy into keeping Substance as part of our workflows is pointless unless we know it's something that will be sustainable for the long haul. Games are not developed overnight, and changing the pipeline during development costs a lot of time and money in new licenses and training.

If going forward perpetual licences will not be offered, but prior ones honored, then that's a different story and should be clarified.

While you are right in that they can't revoke them, but if the software relies on a licensing server, and if that server is "cost burden" to the company then they can shut it down. That isn't revoking your license, its still your license, just the infrastructure that supported it is now gone.

They've done this before, many times. As have many other software providers. I expect no difference now.

The only way they can assure people is by decoupling the need for a licensing server to install or check for a valid license. (Aka, like how the old Modo licenses worked ... you have your own license file and thats all you need).

Companies (especially within the Music industry) are scared to death with the local approach, this is why most VST plugins are relying on iLok, and it's a living hell to deal with, and the way it works is that once you activate your key you are no longer eligible for a refund.

[danielanon]

The future. Image not my own.

[juricakrizanic]

I've been thinking about getting a perpetual licence, but now I've changed my mind completely.

The major problem is we see posts like this in response to "What will happen to perpetual licenses?".



Now, unless the word 'perpetual' means something different, you cannot just revoke those licences. My assumption is that when Substance is fully part of the Creative Cloud, Adobe will most likely give a subscription credit amount for those with "legacy" perpetual licenses, then move them over into the subscription model.

--

per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(o͞o)əl/Submit
adjective
1. never ending or changing.
2. occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.

--

I would suggest not defining these licenses as perpetual as it's extremely misleading. Adobe really needs to come forward and let everyone here know what we're looking at in terms of pricing for the future. Investing our time and energy into keeping Substance as part of our workflows is pointless unless we know it's something that will be sustainable for the long haul. Games are not developed overnight, and changing the pipeline during development costs a lot of time and money in new licenses and training.

If going forward perpetual licences will not be offered, but prior ones honored, then that's a different story and should be clarified.

While you are right in that they can't revoke them, but if the software relies on a licensing server, and if that server is "cost burden" to the company then they can shut it down. That isn't revoking your license, its still your license, just the infrastructure that supported it is now gone.

They've done this before, many times. As have many other software providers. I expect no difference now.

The only way they can assure people is by decoupling the need for a licensing server to install or check for a valid license. (Aka, like how the old Modo licenses worked ... you have your own license file and thats all you need).

It's been mentioned they've been collaborating with adobe for a few years now. So if allegorithmic doesn't decouple the licensing server, it basically means they decided to serve us all on a silver platter after we gave them money.

No wonder they were selling cheap perpetuals in the first place. It was a sham all along.. There must be some grounds for a class action lawsuit here, hopefully we can get in touch with someone with legal expertise

[pheonixflame9]

What I REALLY want to know is this:

What happens to perpetual licenses. Will they lose access, will they be stuck with the last update they had or will they go on as normal guarenteed?

What happens to Substance Source and our available downloads? Do we need to use them all up? Will they remain?

Adobe always adds things to their subscription service and this will be no different. So we need to know what it happening to our purchases and for it to be clear.

Thank you.

Still want official word on this. Especially for us who own hundreds of downloads from substance source saved.

[Wes McDermott]

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to chime in as well and help to answer your questions. Please forgive me if I am stating anything that has already been said. Let me begin by saying I completely understand if you are disappointed, upset or just angry. It's totally OK to feel angry and express that to us. I want you to know that we are hearing your feedback. We always listen and take seriously feedback whether it is good or bad. Feedback from users is vital to us and that will never change. I want to speak to you all as well as you are an awesome community and I don't want anyone here to feel betrayed or worried. I've gotten to know many people in this community over the years and you are all very dear to me.   

Please allow me to provide some context into why this is happening. I understand if you don't want to hear this. I know that what I am saying at this time will come off as cheap talk or PR speak. That is totally understandable and to be honest, I would probably feel the same.

First, let me say that we did not sell out to Adobe. In order for us to operate as a company, we needed to have investors and Adobe has been an investor in Allegorithmic for a few years now. I tell you this to illustrate the point that this was not a snap decision.

Allegorithmic has been successful, but to fully realize our vision to build new innovative tools, we needed to grow. We choose to join Adobe because it presented us with a unique opportunity to lead Adobe’s 3D initiatives, and to help take them to the next level.  To accomplish this, Adobe is building an expanded team to focus on opportunities in 3D and immersive design. Allegorithmic is this team and our CEO, Sébastien Deguy, is now Vice President, 3D & Immersive.

Here is the key difference. This was not just an acquisition, where Substance is being absorbed and later discarded as we have sadly seen happen many times in this industry. This was an acquisition to bring the entire Allegorithmic team and Substance toolset on board to lead a new 3D initiative within Adobe. We are in charge of this initiative. And this is a very unique opportunity for us to grow and yet retain everything that we are. That opportunity is extremely rare. It's nonexistent in fact anywhere else. This is the only reason we would agree to this deal with Adobe. We love our team and we love our users. 

As I said above, I don't expect this to make you feel any better. I mean, of course I would say this stuff, I work here right? I'm not asking anyone to believe me or take my word for it. All I ask is for you to just watch what we do. Our actions are what will speak. We have a lot to prove now and the Substance team is up for the challenge to prove it.

You had faith in us before. I am just asking you to please try and have faith in us now. I know that is a lot to ask today. Watch what we do and judge us by our actions and not solely by this announcement. Answers are coming. 

All I can do today is just be real with you. And so with all that said, what do I really think?

Well, yeah, sure I'm scared. This is a huge change and new chapter for all of us. It's human to be scared of change. I don't have all the answers and I don't know what tomorrow brings. But here is what I know...

I work with the smartest and greatest team in this world. They are not just my co-workers. They are my friends and my family. I love everyone at Allegorithmic dearly. I have known Sébastien for a long time and he has always put the team first over himself. Every single time. He is passionate about what he has created and he loves this community.

I believe in Sébastien and I trust him 100%. As I said, I don't have all the answers today and I don't know all the changes that are coming, but I know that I am with my Substance family. We are still together and we will go through this new adventure the same way we do everything: together as a team.

With Love,

Wes

[IrradianceCache]

The Gallery seems to have disappeared from the Allegorithmic site - although to be fair I haven't visited that for weeks, so it could have gone ages back...