Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (part 1)  (Read 56775 times)

There’s an article on Adobe’s blog that explains how Allegorithmic’s products will fit into their product line-up, "Gaming Technology is Changing How We Design and Visualize Products".

https://theblog.adobe.com/gaming-technology-changing-design-visualize-products/

Some of it puts me at ease, some of it raises an eyebrow. Here’s a few excerpts:



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Adobe is planning to develop additional workflows to make video compositing a more immediate and seamless experience. By expanding the 3D capabilities in After Effects, it will be possible to bring 3D content textured in Substance tools directly into After Effects and composite 3D and 2D content in real-time.


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The Aero engine uses PBR as its primary material type, leveraging machine learning technology in the lighting space to bring the best photorealism and making real and virtual objects indistinguishable in AR. The existing workflow between Substance Painter and Dimension is currently the best way to bring 3D models with PBR materials into Aero, and more workflows will follow.

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We’re now seeing more and more innovation emerge in other industries traditionally more focused on physical products and product design, like CPG, apparel, retail, packaging, and more.… With Allegorithmic’s tools, companies can now leverage the 3D models of their product across the entire customer experience – from e-commerce content to marketing material, from catalogues to immersive experiences.

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With the acquisition of Allegorithmic, Adobe will also broaden the integration of the Substance SDK in its products, making Substance even more of a worldwide standard for materials. For example, the Substance SDK is already used inside Adobe Capture, the first app on the market capable of creating a PBR material in real-time from a single photo. Substance SDK is also integrated with the industry’s most used 3D tools and engines and provides a unique interoperability.

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With PBR as a material standard and Substance as its editing format, Adobe is bringing a unified material pipeline for gaming, film, product visualization and design to the world.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 05:35:29 am

Of course Substance will be part of the CC suite, as are all Adobe apps. No one ever denied this, why would anyone think otherwise? The only open question/fear is if newer versions will eventually be ONLY available through CC. As owner of a perpetual license I don't hope so.

Still, calling CC wildly expensive or massive bloatware is lacking any sense of proportion. The whole CC suite (20+ apps) costs about the same as Modo (subscription), but less than half of what Autodesk charges for Max or Maya alone. And the CC app takes up less than 50 MB of RAM which is neglible on any reasonable workstation and has never crashed or interfered with my work in any way. Don't get me wrong, I dislike the idea of software as a service and understand anybody who doesn't want to be a part of that, but be fair.

But wow, Adobe's vision for the future of Substance sounds horrible (thanks for the link, 87sunny!).
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Gaming Technology is Changing How We Design and Visualize Products
Ugh.
Let's take something really cool and see how we can use it for something uncool! Yay!

Oh my God, people!! The level of toxicity in this thread is insane!

Please stop with the name calling and bullying. It is this exact behaviour why companies stop caring about indie artists and only concentrate on Enterprise users. You all say the company doesn't care about you, but after this display of callous behaviour, I don't blame them.

Please take a step back and reflect upon your behaviour and try to put yourself in their shoes. They are real people who have friends and family reading these posts and they have done nothing to deserve this kind of hate.

Like a lot of them have said, "NOTHING HAS CHANGED AS OF NOW!"

Stop acting like the sky is falling. Nothing has been announced in terms of pricing, licensing, etc.

Please stop saying they are sellouts. It is their product. Their company. They have the full right to decide what to do with it.

Every single one of us would probably do the same if presented with the opportunity to grow in terms of cash inflow, research and development and still having operational control.

Every studio that I have worked for has Creative Cloud built into the pipeline. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. So, it's sensible to bring Substance under that umbrella.

Yes, when I read the subject line of the email sent to us, even I said, "Oh No!" because it created an atmosphere of uncertainty for the software that I love dearly. And uncertainty is never fun. But, again, I refrained from lashing out like most people in this thread cos nothing has changed for now and I am still continuing to use Substance like before. And bullying, name calling has never solved anything in the history of everything.

I agree if tomorrow they decide to completely change how Substance is offered to the people and jack up the prices, I will be upset too but again, It's their product/service. No one is forcing me to pay up. Its my choice. I was texturing just fine before Substance and I can go back to my old ways.

Voicing criticism is completely within your rights as a paying/future customer but mob-mentality / trolling is not.

At a time of change, the people at Allegorithmic needed your support but you all let them down.

Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:44:14 am

We would appreciate a minimum of respect, we are engaging with you as much as we can (and working on week ends) if you are not interested in what we have to say or will call us liars, you're welcome to do that elsewhere.

Jeremie I agree. Some posts here are really NOT okay.
Some last words here from me.
As a french, I was really proud of you all. I enjoyed the time with you  ,but here our paths part.
Adobe Cloud is a no go for me. It is not about money, it is about to get forced into something which you don't really want.
I like to stay individual, free of my artistic tools, when ever I want.
You see I used Adobe since PS6 . Than I upgrade to CS2,CS3 and  CS6. I choose this upgrades by my own,without to get forced and it was okay for me .Than I try the CC and get only disappointed.
Now I am Adobe free and will stay like this.
However, I wish you people from Allegorhitmic just the best for your future. Take all care of you and maybe I will see a few of you again in the near future, coming out from the dust with new revolutionary Ideas.  :)

Salut +

It is this exact behaviour why companies stop caring about indie artists and only concentrate on Enterprise users....

The focus away from user base towards corporate clients is all about money and general practice, it has nothing to do with how "toxic" one thinks the user base is or not. To suggest otherwise would be projecting. =)

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Please take a step back and reflect upon your behaviour and try to put yourself in their shoes. They are real people who have friends and family reading these posts and they have done nothing to deserve this kind of hate. Jesus fucking Christ!

This is called moral posturing. Your reaction seems a bit hyperbolic based on whats seen so far.

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Stop acting like the sky is falling. Nothing has been announced in terms of pricing, licensing, etc.

When Adobe or Autodesk obtain something in the industry (which is why so many become jaded), something always changes, which includes pricing, licensing and so forth. People are capable of pattern recognition, which means they can come to some generalized conclusions on why this is acquisition is not good for them or their interest. Just look at the history of these "acquisitions". They have every right to get pissed.

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Please stop saying they are sellouts. It is their product. Their company. They have the full right to decide what to do with it.

Indeed, its their company and they have every right to do with it what they want.... which includes selling out. lol

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Every single one of us would probably do the same if presented with the opportunity to grow in terms of cash inflow, research and development and still having operational control.

1. Not really, especially when you look or judge who you are dealing with.
2. Since when has an acquired company ever really retained operational control in the long term? I can't think of any.

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Every studio that I have worked for has Creative Cloud built into the pipeline. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. So, it's sensible to bring Substance under that umbrella.

So going back to the first thing you said, the clients matter more than the average end user. It has nothing to do with "toxic" communities. =)

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Voicing criticism is completely within your rights as a paying/future customer but mob-mentality / trolling is not.

When the majority of users don't like something, and feel it is bad for them, they will voice it. You can refer to it as mob mentality if you wish, but that is just attempting to attach a negative connotation to what is normal behavior as it relates to a massively disliked move. Look not everyone is taking it as well as others, but for the most part its all a form of criticism.

At the end of the day moral posturing is even less valuable than pointless trolling. Its an appeal to emotion based on projection, nothing more.

Food for thought.

At a time of change, the people at Allegorithmic needed your support but you all let them down.

Yeah no, the exact opposite happened, they let us down. Brown nosing will get you no where.


At a time of change, the people at Allegorithmic needed your support but you all let them down.

At this point, I really have serious doubts that the team is in need of our support. They are Adobe now. And Adobe don't need any support from little Indy or hobby artists .
I love to support independent companies with my hard earned money. But not Companies like Adobe/Autodesk who see in me only a cash cow .
You see, I have many Software from little start ups, independent companies. I even don't use all.But I support, I support the Blender nation, now I will support also Quixel,3Dcoat .I have Infinity ,Corel. PSP from Corel, I barerly use it, but i keep upgrading it, just because they are not Adobe.

Never made a post here until now but have owned the Substance Suite with a perpetual license since 2016. I actually found out about this news the day the news broke over on the 3D Coat forums.

I've read all 50+ pages here and all the topics on reddit. I will say I am more surprised and shocked at the backlash than I would have expected. Not becasue I think it is not warranted but very happy to see finally people are realizing just how awful Adobe/Autodesk subscription like models are for programs. I remember when Adobe first started CC there was a split in the opposition. The majority who liked it only thought about how 'cheap' the programs would finally be but they didn't realize just how much they'd lose in the end. As time had gone on however its turned more and more away as they realize innovation dissolves and you pretty much just get tiny bug fixes with price hikes each year. I have never and will never agree that online always subscription models for a program is a positive thing, this isn't Netflix. Programs definitely don't need to be subscription based as Adobe claims its the 'only way for their products to work', it is only about the money and doing little as possible for maximum gains. There is nothing more anti-consumer a software company can do to its clients than ripping away perpetual and offering subscription only where you end up paying more in the long run for less, and they love every day they can get away with it. Perpetual licenses will always be king as far as I am concerned and when you want a new version can upgrade for a cheaper fee one time if you see the new version has actual changes and new features worth paying for. I do not do the rent a program deal.

I looked at Substance Painter and 3D Coat at the same time and ultimately went with 3D Coat for my workflow several years ago mainly becasue it had so many options in the same program (UV unwrapping, voxel sculpting, baking, and paint). Even though I haven't use substance much since I had gone with its 'competitor' (as some would see it) I still saw programs like Substance and 3D Coat on the same team fighting the good fight against the larger corporations and changing the way we could do 3D work and make painting on the models in 3D a standard method now. My point being though I still use Bitmap 2 Material weekly if not daily so thats really why I am here since its part of the Substance family and will have the same fate as the other products (sadly). What this fate will be is undecided but I have a pretty good idea where its headed.

The day that the only way to get a newer version of B2M is through the cloud will be a very sad day indeed. If B2M gets dissolved as a plugin for their photoshop that would be equally as painful to see. I really hope that all substance products will be kept as standalone and also the perpetual license for future versions will be here to stay as well. There is nothing exciting about any other payment method when compared to perpetual.

To end, for now the Substance Suite is safe. However, unless there was a permanent contract binding agreement between Adobe and Allegorithmic at the time of acquisition that allows Allegorithmic to have full control over their products and future releases anything said is pretty much up to Adobe if they want it to continue or allow it to happen. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the Substance Suite programs are still hosted here with perpetual licensees for the same price or still exist in 2-3 years time. In the mean time stay frosty, look/use alternative programs when you can to stay versatile in your workflow, and don't buy into the fluff. As a customer in the end companies like Adobe will only bend the knee to big studios where they get the most money from subscription services, they don't care about you the little guy.

I agree. This thread has become a bit inflamed and hard to watch. I get that people are upset (as am I... Im not an Adobe fan at all for many reasons, and HATE subscription software with a purple passion) But alleg doesn't really deserve the amount of venom that's being thrown in their general direction.... all of which is based on what people FEAR will happen... not whats definitely going to happen. To this point, they've always had awesome customer service. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, and respect for how they've been thus far.

Also, I doubt they'd kill the perpetual licenses. Not even just because I don't believe either company is THAT malicious (I mean, we all still have and use CS6) but I'm pretty sure that would be a legal mess.

I think we should all just take a wait and see approach. I know its hard, but hey, you know... maybe it won't turn out the way we all fear. If they do go sub only under CC, u can always stick with what you've got now and not buy in.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 10:24:13 am


I cant wrap my head around this. Allegorithmic is 20 years ahead of Adobe with its 150 employers versus Adobes 30.000.
It just doesnt makes sense.

What they will tell you is that they got some 100+ employees after taking Adobe money 2 years ago. I also wonder how many of those employees are actually developers or are just the usual non developer roles, such as marketing, sales, HR..ect

This was posted in another thread, read point #2

Two things are obvious.
1) Allegorithmic did not realize how much their user base actually hates Adobe. Their user base was drawn to them being a newer independent studio that was not Adobe.
2) Allegorithmic was too attracted to the financial backing Adobe can bring to the table. This obviously was bait, and it worked. Allegorithmic didn't need to do this in my opinion, they didnt even need to expand as much as they have already. The users were fine with the basics of designer and painter, even if they were updated at a slower pace. All the other stuff is just fluff.

1) We knew, If anything we underestimated how much people loved us rather than how much people disliked Adobe.

2) You are right, we didn't need to at all, but we wanted to, because it's an everyday frustration to have ideas you know will revolutionize 3D creation and not being able to carry them further than the idea stage because of a lack of resources and time.

I don't buy this completely due the fact you don't need a big team to "revolutionize 3D", which we have seen in the past. Just one or two insanely good developers can do magic, you don't need a ton of money and a giant team with nice offices with massive bills to pay. Its like wanting to get to the finish line (big successful studio) without running the entire race. So what if it takes a bit longer to get where you want to be? Whats the rush?

3D Coat was basically done by 1 guy with some helpers, Zbrush started with a small team, Affinity which is competing with Adobe for photoshop and designer only have around 13-16 people if I remember correctly. History shows that you can "revolutionize" and simply design good software with just one person, you can do it with a small highly skilled team.
Thus, this idea that you need big "publisher like" money to help you "produce" or shape the industry (when you already had a strong following) is simply not believable.

What they also don't realize is that no matter how good they do at Adobe, its going to go to waste for a lot of people since they will NOT be installing Adobe's CC. Allego can tell me all the great stuff they plan on doing, and it won't matter as long as I am told I have to use CC to use any of it.

At this point I can appreciate the argument coming from those in favor of open source software. Users were drawn to Substance in large part because it wasn't Adobe. I stopped using Quixel back then, not because I thought it was worse, but because it forced me to rely on Adobe Photoshop. This was a choice a lot of artist had to make back then, which one got us away from Adobe.

Allegorithmic, some advice. Don't force the use of the CC going forward. Too many of us will not install it.

+1

It is an understatement saying that we dislike Adobe we straight out do not respect them.
For us they are the mob keeping softwares for creative people as hostages with zero intention of 'revolutionize' anything and now they took Allegorithmic as a hostage to squeeze as much profit as they can from these guys.
They represent exactly other end of the spectrum for every adjective than what Allegorithmic and its community represents.

I remember my friend first time showing me SP on youtube, and first thing that took my attention was,  they were answering every single comment on youtube, i thought 'they are nuts,i love them already' .Ofcourse after seeing their product i loved them even more.

In a different scenario if instead of selling out to Adobe if Allegorithmic stated 'we are in some financial hurdles and we cant give perpetuity licenses until we have financial security'
Damn i would be more than happy to do my part and continue supporting them because i trust them sorry but not under abodes flag.

I really dont understand why adobe needs 30.000 employers it just needs one ceo to keep softwares as hostage and collect money.

point #2

'2) You are right, we didn't need to at all, but we wanted to, because it's an everyday frustration to have ideas you know will revolutionize 3D creation and not being able to carry them further than the idea stage because of a lack of resources and time.'

i agree with the ninsix's post :as example of pixologic, yes dynamesh, zremesher and many 3D revolutionary codes they have are million dollar codes that changed how we do things, but i dont believe they needed million dollar to code them they needed incredibly creative people WITH CREATIVE FREEDOM to think and implement them
and about time...

how many years of Allegorithmics time do you think Adobe will waste to implement substance into CC. SP Dimension bridge SP adobe stock bridge and whatever waste of time they had in their agenda and what resources of an 2d dinasour can have to revolutionize  anything in 3d. I am imagining Adobe and Allegos people on a round table and they must have nothing in common to talk about.

I would even understant if it was Foundry (it would create monopoly but..) at least they will share with them their expertise on 3D, damn,  udim support would be the first order in the business instead of waste of time substance cc integration or whatever adobes non creatives have in mind and they solve your problem on the fly thats why while you work on 100 million dollars of movie you are not afraid to work with them. Texture painters using photoshop in the 'common windows' computer of the studios is one thing but building a texturing pipeline around any Adobe product...you must be an absolute mad man to do that.

Anyways happy to hear they wont drop linux and genuinely i hope all Allegorithmic core stuff will keep their jobs as long as they want and given the chance to use their full potential.

(obviously i passed denial and anger, now i am at bargaining stage-what if we give adobe sebastian and that screw normal map they liked and keep the rest ;D it will take them at least a year to figure out and play with screw normal map)
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 11:26:26 am

I agree. This thread has become a bit inflamed and hard to watch. I get that people are upset (as am I... Im not an Adobe fan at all for many reasons, and HATE subscription software with a purple passion) But alleg doesn't really deserve the amount of venom that's being thrown in their general direction.... all of which is based on what people FEAR will happen... not whats definitely going to happen. To this point, they've always had awesome customer service. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, and respect for how they've been thus far.

Also, I doubt they'd kill the perpetual licenses. Not even just because I don't believe either company is THAT malicious (I mean, we all still have and use CS6) but I'm pretty sure that would be a legal mess.

I think we should all just take a wait and see approach. I know its hard, but hey, you know... maybe it won't turn out the way we all fear. If they do go sub only under CC, u can always stick with what you've got now and not buy in.

+1

I agree. This thread has become a bit inflamed and hard to watch. I get that people are upset (as am I... Im not an Adobe fan at all for many reasons, and HATE subscription software with a purple passion) But alleg doesn't really deserve the amount of venom that's being thrown in their general direction.... all of which is based on what people FEAR will happen... not whats definitely going to happen. To this point, they've always had awesome customer service. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, and respect for how they've been thus far.

Also, I doubt they'd kill the perpetual licenses. Not even just because I don't believe either company is THAT malicious (I mean, we all still have and use CS6) but I'm pretty sure that would be a legal mess.

I think we should all just take a wait and see approach. I know its hard, but hey, you know... maybe it won't turn out the way we all fear. If they do go sub only under CC, u can always stick with what you've got now and not buy in.

+1 from me too. It's done and dusted. I was shocked an upset at first too. I think Allegorithmic probably get the overall feeling now. My advice to anyone, get a perpetual license if you don't have one and let's see how the rest plays out. You never know, down the road we might all be surprised!!

If B2M gets dissolved as a plugin for their photoshop that would be equally as painful to see.

Adobe already has a tool that competes with B2M, "Adobe Capture".

"Generate realistic PBR materials and textures from any image on your mobile device and apply them to your 3D objects in Dimension."
https://www.adobe.com/au/products/capture.html

They'll likely need to consolidate at some point. How they do that remains to be seen.

Guys I'm going to lock this thread: let's pursue the conversation here:
https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php?topic=27572


Why?
I gave most of the answers in the new topic, but basically, this post demonstrates the shock of this huge news, with many legit concerns, but also a lot of "noises" (insults, conspiracy theories, and trolling) that makes it not efficient to get a clear conversations.

So the goal is to keep you skepticisms/concerns, and discuss in a more efficient way.

This post will remain, as it's important to remember this first strong reaction.
Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 12:22:28 pm