Author Topic: New Substance changes  (Read 16052 times)

Hi,

If your subscription is today "paused", the accumulated payments will be transformed into "months" when you take a new subscription.

For example:
- you have been paying for 5 months so you have 100 accumulated payments
- when you start a new subscription, you will need to pay only 7 months a in a row to have the possibility to own a license
You thus don't lose anything you paid so far.

Regarding your last question, I think you misunderstood it: once you have a license, you own the license.
If you want updates for a specific software, you can pay $75 to get a maintenance of 12 months.


Regarding your other concerns: with the current system, after 16 months you would have had a version of Substance Designer 5, not 6. So imagine if you would create all your game using Substance Designer 6, and would end up with a license of the previous version after 16 months, which would not be compatible with all the work you made?
This is why we made this change: now you will have the possibility to own a license of the latest build, which you are currently using.

Cheers,
Director of Product Management & COO

Thank you for answering my questions. I misunderstood some things about the old system and some things about the new one. Excuse me.

This is certainly overall a better deal. I do think the ability to pause a subscription's important but that's my only remaining complaint about the new system.

Hi guyz,

Things are actually pretty simple:

Substance for $19.90 per month:
- as long as you are subscribed, you get all the software and 30 downloads on Source (as today)
- when you want to quit, there are 3 options:
    - if you have been paying for less than 12 months, then you just quit
    - if you have been paying for more than 12 months (for example 18 months), when you click on "Cancel" you will have an option "Do you want to own the software for $49?"
                - Yes: you will own a license of Substance, meaning SD + SP + B2M. This means you can own the software for $290 (12 x 20 + 49) after 1 year, compared to $320 (16 x 20) today after 16 months with Substance Live.
                - No: you just quit


Regarding the updates:
- you pay $75 to get 12 months of maintenance, and you own the software.

For example, with Substance Painter 2 Indie:
- you have free updates (free maintenance) up to September 30, 2017
- we release new builds in October, November, etc, but you are not interested in the new features, so you don't do anything. You still use your regular build from September.
- in January 2018 we release a new build, with a feature that you love: you pay $75, and you will get all the builds up to January 2019. Then you keep your build from January 2019.
- or you can wait for a few more months, see what's coming, and purchase the update only you feel it's worth it. Maybe you will wait months before purchasing a 12 months maintenance.

It's basically like today, except that instead of buying "Substance Painter 2" without knowing how many updates you will get, you buy 12 months of maintenance.

Cheers,

I'm very confused, I am a Substance live member, 19.90 per month. You just got a payment from me on the 5th of this month and now I got an email saying my license expires in 3 days. I really don't understand.

I'm very confused, I am a Substance live member, 19.90 per month. You just got a payment from me on the 5th of this month and now I got an email saying my license expires in 3 days. I really don't understand.

You activated the trial version version of the software on May 10th, instead of using your license :)
Just chose "Help->Manage activation" then "Activate the software".

Cheers,
Director of Product Management & COO

Hi guyz,

Things are actually pretty simple:

Substance for $19.90 per month:
- as long as you are subscribed, you get all the software and 30 downloads on Source (as today)
- when you want to quit, there are 3 options:
    - if you have been paying for less than 12 months, then you just quit
    - if you have been paying for more than 12 months (for example 18 months), when you click on "Cancel" you will have an option "Do you want to own the software for $49?"
                - Yes: you will own a license of Substance, meaning SD + SP + B2M. This means you can own the software for $290 (12 x 20 + 49) after 1 year, compared to $320 (16 x 20) today after 16 months with Substance Live.
                - No: you just quit


Regarding the updates:
- you pay $75 to get 12 months of maintenance, and you own the software.

For example, with Substance Painter 2 Indie:
- you have free updates (free maintenance) up to September 30, 2017
- we release new builds in October, November, etc, but you are not interested in the new features, so you don't do anything. You still use your regular build from September.
- in January 2018 we release a new build, with a feature that you love: you pay $75, and you will get all the builds up to January 2019. Then you keep your build from January 2019.
- or you can wait for a few more months, see what's coming, and purchase the update only you feel it's worth it. Maybe you will wait months before purchasing a 12 months maintenance.

It's basically like today, except that instead of buying "Substance Painter 2" without knowing how many updates you will get, you buy 12 months of maintenance.

Cheers,

I'm very confused, I am a Substance live member, 19.90 per month. You just got a payment from me on the 5th of this month and now I got an email saying my license expires in 3 days. I really don't understand.

ahh ok, wonder how that happened. Thanks.

I really don't see the point in paying month by month for updates for substance designer when SD6 came out in February and we are now in June and Unity3D still doesn't support SD6. With the new subscription model you are going to be forced to add more features to keep people subscribing and those features are going to be never usable in Unity3D because the turnaround is so many months. I don't know how much of the slowness is Allegorithmic and how much is Unity but it's not acceptable. And then there's the 4096 issue.

Hi,

If you just wish to use Substance Designer, you can still purchase it for $149 and pay for maintenance if you want/need the updates.
The monthly payment is an offer that has been existing for more than 2 years with Substance Live, it's not something new neither.

Regarding Unity, I can't go in the details but what I can say is that Unity is now so big that any new features has to be tested during months in a beta before it actually ships.
The non availability of substances higher than 2k in Unity is not an issue per se but more a design request to avoid dealing with support depending on the GPU, and it's probably not going to change before quite some time.

Cheers,
Director of Product Management & COO

Perhaps this is a little off-topic, but I've never understood why SD's so tightly integrated into Unity. Substance doesn't need any detailed information about the state of a game to work, everything a substance knows about has to go through the substance's inputs anyway. Unity doesn't need any detailed information about the state of Substance either -- It needs to share system resources with it, which means you need some tools to manage Substance's cached memory and stuff, and other than that it seems like it's basically one function call. Unity tells Substance to generate some textures, Substance does it, and then Unity handles them like any other texture. Simple.

But this isn't how it works. Substances in Unity are their own super complicated thing with their own super complicated problems. They have their own class of material, ProceduralMaterial, that handles Substance inputs and Shader inputs at the same time and kinda sorta tries to pretend they're the same thing. In the inspector it pretends pretty successfully, which is confusing, especially because in code they aren't the same thing at all -- ProceduralMaterial duplicates setFloat() as setProceduralFloat() and so on for every data type it supports. It needs to, obviously, because both shaders and substances use strings to expose their properties, and there's no good way to ensure that property names aren't duplicated between the substance and the shader. This is all sort of irritating, but not really problematic. Unfortunately, it gets worse.

When you change a Material or ProceduralMaterial at runtime, you can do it in a way that changes every object that uses the material (renderer.sharedMaterial), or you can do it in a way that changes only one object (renderer.material). If you do the latter, it duplicates the material and applies changes to the new copy. Simple enough. Unfortunately, those copies aren't automatically destroyed when they're no longer in use. Unity's memory management stops them from being garbage collected normally, but only does its own garbage collection when you load a new scene. However, it does provide two ways of managing memory manually.

Resources.UnloadAsset() cleans up one material. You call it on a material when it's no longer needed and it frees up that memory. This is a pretty sensible way to do this as far as these things go -- you tell it what to deallocate and it does it. Unfortunately, ProceduralMaterials aren't quite the same as Materials, and news of their existence hasn't reached this particular bowel of Unity. If you call Resources.UnloadedAsset() on a ProceduralMaterial, even if it's cast to Material, it just throws a helpful error saying "UnloadAsset can only be used on assets;" and leaves it in memory.

This leaves Resources.UnloadUnusedAssets(), which manually triggers the automatic garbage collection that automatically happens on level load. It's clear why it only happens on level load, it's a pretty expensive call and that's the only time you can do it where you can be sure it won't affect FPS. As far as I am aware, the only way to stop procedural materials from leaking memory, if you're creating and destroying them at runtime, is to call this function periodically on a timer or whatever. The actual performance impact from this isn't *too* bad, but it's worse than it should be, and this is a crazy way to manage memory.

To be clear, most of these problems are Unity engine problems, not really Substance problems. But I do think it's an example of the Substance integration incurring problems from being so tightly coupled to Unity. You guys being completely at the mercy of their schedule to update your product is another -- I imagine that as much as that bugs us users it must be much worse for you guys. I know being stuck like that for months and months would drive me insane.

So why is it like this? There's loads of texturing plugins for Unity that are just regular plugins, without this sort of engine-level integration. The only other third-party product that I can think of that's integrated into Unity this way is Speedtree, and I'm not even sure about that. Why not write a separate plugin? Is it for performance reasons? I'd sort of expect performance to be better if that were the case, but it's a possibility. Is it because Unity maintains the integration and not Allegorithmic?
Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 11:50:24 am

Hi,

Substance was integrated into Unity in 2011. At this time, Unity wanted Substance to be really deeply integrated as it was a key feature, and they led the design. The first version of Speedtree was integrated around the same time.
There were barely any plugin and modules didn't exist in Unity back at the time, so it explains why it was done like this.

There are discussions to make it evolve as a plugin/module, however I can't say if this will happen (or when).

Cheers,
Director of Product Management & COO

Ah, that makes sense. Unity's changed a ton since 2011.

How will this work on Steam? And what will happen to existing copies of the software that are separate library entries, i.e. Substance Designer 5 and Substance Designer 6. Will these versions be removed and replaced with a single library entry just called Substance Designer? That would be a nice way to simplify the Steam library.

Also, how does this affect B2M?

For Steam:
- Substance Painter 2 is going to be available up to September 30, 2017
- Substance Designer 6 is going to be available up to June 30, 201

We will communicate later on how it will work after those dates.

Cheers,

Hello.
Any update regarding the Steam version?
I REALLY love to have my Substance products in Steam and fear that after
September I won't ever be able to get SD6 into Steam any more.
On the other hand I fear I soon won't get any updates there any more as well. :(
Not cool. Totally not cool.

So what's the status?
Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 08:59:27 am

Don't worry, you will still have access to your tools and we will keep on updating both Painter and Designer on Steam after the transition.

Don't worry, you will still have access to your tools and we will keep on updating both Painter and Designer on Steam after the transition.

But... can I still buy them on Steam or get a Steam key after the transition?

Yes.

I got that right from Steam.  So sounds like it needs to be updated and corrected.


They need to show it properly then as it said Sept 2017 is all I seen. and I own all your products all versions.

If Designer 6 is June 2018.. Then great that is fair of course.  that is what I'm talking about as it looked as if it was months later... Since Designer came out a few months back.... So so please correct your emails. Then. Maybe it missed the Substance Designer 6 knowing I own it maybe?